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i was just here thinking...

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 01:22 AM

Ok while browsing through the classifieds i ran across a few "companies" (sellers) that i know are not 100% honest, and it got me to thinking how safe is it to use the classifieds?? i mean there is no feedback sections for sellers and it seems for binned to ask questions about breeders/sellers/ads on the forums so what is there to protect the buyer/inquirer, i know the is the BOI on Fauna but not all of us frequent that site... many of the forum members seem familiar with the sellers in the classifieds section, we can offer up advice/experience so why can't we offer up our opinions on an ad/seller/company???

i honestly feel like the forums are "manned" in the wrong way...

if i were to post that i got screwed over by a particular individual it would be deleted and i don't see why, that is valuable information that may help someone else from falling victim to same seller.

i think the rules should be revisited or sellers on the classifieds should be rated by buyers it will help both the seller and buyer, a good seller will have automatic references and buyers wouldn't need to be all over the place trying to figure out who is trust worthy?

Thoughts?

~ZF
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

Replies (28)

crimsonking Dec 02, 2005 04:29 AM

I've seen a few as well over there...
Funny, I was replying to a post you made the other day and it must've been at the same time it was being deleted or something. Anyway MY post ended up in the wrong thread all together, made no sense, and was embarrassing for me.
Maybe a BOI type thing is in order here, but there is also $$ involved with accounts and such, so that'd be dicey.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

ChristopherD Dec 02, 2005 05:22 AM

there needs to be something ,but how do you keep the Bad guys" from going on the offensive.they're already liars.somp'm to think about.Chris

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 07:00 AM

good guy/bad guy type forum at ks.com, i lost interest in the "green"forum when Rich started charging a membership fee to post.

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 08:11 AM

I think that would be more beneficial!

how does that Hypo look now, s/he looks very healthy and has a very nice coloration, has s/he retained the color... you know i can't see a nice brooks without asking about it!

l8r

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 07:33 PM

He is doing great not quite 4' but getting there. I think yours has better color and if that's a girl?, she is killer!

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 07:49 PM

it's a He and he's a killer snake... i wish i had a female liek this, but all the good ones were males... sad but true!

Here's a pic i like

l8r

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 07:55 PM

Short tail for a male, well m or f, an awesome animal anyway.
The last one? is that one of them "JELLIES"? please excuse my random/re-run pics

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 08:06 PM

Nah... just a really impressive lavender Albino (from sulphur bloodlines)... the jelly male i have doesn't picture well, he has amazing color but it's hard to capture

this is pretty close. blurry thou!

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 08:15 PM

He is very killer, who's gonna be his lucky bride?

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 08:36 PM

He's gonna be bred to every Mutation/2x mutaiton/ 3x mutation there is!

it'll be interesting to see what the "Jelly snows" look like!

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 08:46 PM

That would truly be a killer project, expect to see some hi-orange"goini" this wknd,lol!

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 08:53 PM

we'll need it.. the forum is getting dull and boring again... i even get to the point where i don't wanna post anything... alot of guys have really cool looking stock i wished they'd share more often!

your pix keep things moving... and it's pretty cool how you got a lil sumthin for everyone!

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 10:41 PM

For years i lurked this place over and i remember seeing flame wars that lasted for months. Who can blame people for not wanting to post here, then again there's tons of hobbyists that just don't want to share anyway.
So, what about that killer jellie? what are ya gonna match him up with?

ZFelicien Dec 03, 2005 09:36 AM

The Jellie's 1st mate will be a Lavender albino; 2 forms of amel expressed at the same time... i'm super curious... one problem is that it may be really hard to identify!

l8r

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

JETZEN Dec 03, 2005 09:58 AM

It's gonna be awesome,thanks for sharing

HerperHelmz Dec 02, 2005 09:02 PM

Awesome snake.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

ZFelicien Dec 02, 2005 09:06 PM

Thanx... you should see him in person! he isn't even 50% Sulphur but very yellow/orange... can't wait to a Sulphur lavender!

~ZF
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
Royal Blue ReptileZ

goregrind Dec 02, 2005 03:59 PM

and whats all this good/ bad stuff, im confused
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

JETZEN Dec 02, 2005 07:45 PM

I can't reveal the "green" forums real name without risking deletion of this thread.
the goodguy/badguy forum would be about praising good dealers and shaming bad dealers(reptiles)

FR Dec 02, 2005 10:02 AM

I believe in the begining they had such a place, but as it turns out, the world is full of complainers and all companies offend someone in some way. So the list became useless.

KS also had a ranting forum, so those that only wanted to rant/vent, had a place to go. Man o man, did that place get outa hand. It did not last all that long. If you think some here are "odd" just see what happens when they are free to express themselves, hahahahahahaha odd takes on a very very new meaning.

And yes, I don't like the subforums, as none of these forums are busy enough to start with, dividing them only slows them down. I suggested to JeffB to divide some of these forums by experience level. Then they got seperated in the oddest ways. If you look at those subforums, they are all important parts of this forum. Thus should be HERE. FR

JETZEN Dec 03, 2005 01:43 PM

esp. if ya like looKING at gorgeous hi-end thayeri.

Rtdunham Dec 03, 2005 04:27 PM

couldn't agree more with everything you said.
terry

Hotshot Dec 02, 2005 10:27 AM

This is THE very reason I do not buy online here!! Well, I dont buy online anymore period. But I would not do business online where the seller has no negative ramifications if he/she sells crappy animals or is just shady! E-bay has the best system that keeps people semi-honest and I just wish they would open their doors to selling of animals as well!!!
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

RACERS
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer "Nightcrawler" (MO locale)

KINGS
1.1 California king snake "Bandit" & "Moonstar" (Coastal phase)
1.1 Prairie king snakes "Bishop" & "Askani" (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake "Domino" (KY locale)
1.1 Desert Kingsnakes "Gambit" & "Psylocke"
0.1 Florida Kingsnake "Shard"
0.1 Speckled Kingsnake "Haven"

MILKS
1.0 Eastern/red Milk intergrade "Cable" (KY locale)
1.0 Eastern/Red Milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)

BULLS/GOPHERS/PINES
0.1 Sonoran Gopher "Husk"
1.0 Kankakee bull (Phil Peak stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Vip3ridae Dec 02, 2005 03:05 PM

Ebay does have the best business credibility system I know. KS could do 1 of 2 things, 1)make some sort of karma/credability system so that people know if it's good or negative feedback for that person or company OR 2) Stop making it possible to sell/buy animals on this website and make a sub-website where it has a karma/credability system and/or point system. I understand people lie but if you have an account that you payed for or your a regular here on these forums then I wouldn't have a reason NOT to believe that this person did you wrong in some way shape or form (i.e you recieved a dead snake,sick snake,BAD packaging,wrong snake). Yeah there will be liers and I know these forums well enough (believe it or not) to know who's a regular and who always complains. Yeah I would also PROBABLY trust the people that just have started their accounts with 0 Karma to a certain extent, maybe by talking with them on the phone or something. I won't be buying here on KS untill that karma/credability system or points is in place but it won't ever happen and no one cares if I will or I won't so whatever

Rtdunham Dec 03, 2005 04:26 PM

>>if i were to post that i got screwed over by a particular individual it would be deleted and i don't see why, that is valuable information that may help someone else from falling victim to same seller.
>>
>>i think the rules should be revisited

here's just one reason why it might not be productive: you've seen how people on the forum periodically resort to less-than-desirable behavior; the same would happen with the reports on sellers/buyers.

An example: Last year i had a former customer threaten to write everyone he knew and tell them i was a cheat and liar and sold bad snakes and didn't stand behind them. Pretty hurtful, eh? Especially since i've spent more than 30 years breeding and selling animals and working hard to establish a reputation for just the opposite. His complaint: I sold him a snake that died months, maybe half a year, after i sold it to him. I had gotten periodic email corerspondence from him, including one email sent three or four months after he got the snakes from me, which expressed his happiness with them and said they were all "flourishing". I guarantee the snakes I sell for 30 days after they're received, so i figured i'd lived up to my obligations. When the snake stopped feeding (again, we're talking about after "flourishing" for months--I even helped him find a vet, because he complained about the vet he'd gone to before in his area.

Anyway, the snake eventually died. The customer's argument was that there must have been something wrong with it when it was sold, that a perfect snake should be bought with expectation not only of living for many years but for reproducing successfully, as well. My position was a snake could leave here healthy and encounter unfavorable conditions, pathogens, or improper care elsewhere--the seller who guarantees an animal for even a week after the animal is out of his hands, and in someone else's care, is really taking a chance, trusting in the buyer.

So we were at an impasse. I had to threaten to sue him for slander if anything he said was untrue and harmed my business. I encouraged him to be scrupulously honest in any complaints he circulated, and he eventually dropped the issue. I like to think (since i continued to support him as a customer--not selling to him any more, but answering questions about husbandry etc--i like to think that unpleasantness has even been put behind both of us now.

But had there been an easy way for him to vent his (I think unfounded) anger I'm confident he would have taken it. I would have been harmed. And that's too easy.

Evaluations such as those consumer reports compiles, or eBay customer evaluations, etc., are reduced to percentages, whereas the small number of transactions on this website would result in anecdotal accounts. I know a complaint is sometimes countered by the words of others who come to the defense with stories of their own successful transactions. But i do think it's still risky to create the forum where anyone--honest or not, reasonable or not--can make declarations about a person's integrity. For the operators to change the rules here and simply say, "we take no responsibility for what's said" is too easy, i think, like giving young people drinks and the keys to the car and disclaiming responsibility.

I DO know where you're coming from. No matter how experienced any of us are we still get taken occasionally, and there are times any of us wish we knew a little more about someone we were doing business with (here's a question, how many people besides me bought alleged "het for calico" hondos a couple years ago, and then learned there was no documentation available at all from the middleman to support that claim? Worse yet, as the months wore on, the numbers of "possible hets" doubled and then tripled, beyond all reasonable possibilities!) I think networking is probably the best compromise, between knowing nothing and knowing everything at the risk of the unethical being handed a great tool for harming the ethical.

imho.

peace
terry

ZFelicien Dec 03, 2005 06:36 PM

Terry i understand your point, i realize someone's reputation can be crushed by one (or a few) bad reports... but i think something is needed... if i were to ask a question (e.g. have u ever heard of "such and such" is he a good guy) about a breeder on the forum it would be deleted, not even giving the poster the opportunity to at least get a response through a private email...

like i said i get your point, i understand perfectly where you're coming from... but i take things like this kinda (well alot) personal because i was Scr*wed out of 3 snakes (trade)!

Thanx for your input

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

markg Dec 03, 2005 07:30 PM

It was a major complaint against one and maybe another large breeder, both of which are very honest, both of which I have dealt with repeatedly with nothing but great results. Simply one customer who had a misunderstanding and let loose on the BOI.

snakesunlimited1 Dec 03, 2005 09:01 PM

I don't know if you remember or not but you drove about a hour east and I drove about 2 hours west to meet in the middle of Florida (RTE 60) over a hondo that you sold me. You ended up giving me a better snake genetically speaking than what I bought. Turned out the snakes you sold me were from another breeder that you got in a deal with something you wanted a week or two earlier and you backed up someone else's sick snake because thats the kinda of guy you are. I ended up giving you $50 bucks a few months latter because you left me feeling like I got such a nice deal. And come to think of it I bought a het snow male and you just applied the $50 to him.

Anyway if you ever get trashed by some loser I will definitely be there raising hell. You da man

Later Jason

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