Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have kept reptiles and other exotic animals for over 25 years. Off and on in the last few years, I've been pondering building some outdoor enclosures, not wood or plastic, but actual habitats or small ecosystems made with block walls, possibly a cement floor covered up with several inches of substrate (sand, dirt, leaf litter, mulch,) a nice little pond (for them to soak, or stock some fish and frogs in for the snakes to eat), a couple rocks and maybe a cave or two for hide places.

First of all, the enclosure would probably be too large to put a top on. So, it would be open. So, what I was thinking is something that #1: won't be able to climb the block walls, and #2: won't get too big so that they won't be able to puch themselves over the walls.

I was thinking about maybe some water snakes, garter snakes, or some southern copperheads. Any particular species that will stay at 2ft or less and not climb? Also, they will have to be able to take the humid summers and cold winter of north-central florida (20f-100f)

Copperheads? No roof? You sound to be about my age so ... delete, delete, delete! Besides, water snakes offer such variety. I have a Florida Pictiventris that looks just like a moccassin, a Yellow Belly that looks like a Racer and a Northern that (could?) be confused for a copperhead. Actually, not mine but so many have similar patterns!

Anyway, an outdoor enclosure is a terrfic idea! Basically, since all snakes can climb I would tend to use a smooth material for the interior (1/4" plywood can be formed to almost any shape), brick, etc. for looks on the outside. Landscape low at the walls, higher towards centre and climbing trees/branches in the middle. Personally, I would tend to consider tight wire mesh on gravel and again on top for drainage as well as for security. This can be dressed with sand/soil or whatever.
My only concern is, without a roof and by design, the "pets" are trapped inside like fish in a barrel. I have used heavy fishing line (almost invisible) pulled tight, as a very effective deterrent to herons and other feathered feeders.
Michael

Well, a top isn't out of the question - it would probably mean making the enclosure smaller. The cement flooring also wasn't the only option. I actually considered doing the gravel bottom, then some sand, dirt, leaf litter on top, some plants in the middle, etc. I just didn't want any of the snakes digging too much and escaping...

The keeping an open top idea was not just because of the large size of the enclosure, but also to give it a more natural appearance, as its own little ecosystem. It looks like it may not be very functional, if all of the snakes would escape though.

the copperhead thing was mainly because i've had several and they usually stay very small. I'm an ex-venomous keeper. At one time, I had around 150 venomous snakes here in Florida, but about two years ago, I decided they took too much time and money. So, now I'm doing reptiles on a smaller level and enjoying it a lot more.

At least you've survived ... my best friend did as you, reared a great many venomous snakes. He died after being bitten by a cobra. I miss him, don't wanna miss you. Water snakes are robust, massive bodied, keel-scaled, multi-terrain serpents! Beautiful!
Michael

A roof or top really is'nt required! And I agree 100% that the enclosures appearance would suffer with one, for sure. If the design is such that the snakes remain secure in it, for eg. excavated 2 feet down with a 2 foot wall, you have a 4 foot deep "arena". I just dug out a 30 x 40 foot pond, by hand. Depth is three feet but, my deck which will be dock is 1 foot above grade. The digging took about a week and a half and the excavated earth will be a burm around the pond. Visually, the wall will appear to be non-existent!
As for herons, etc ... I'm putting no roof, wire or fishing line over this pond. Instead, I will offer lots of hiding places for the inhabitants.
What you're proposing could be magnificent, be brave!
I would do exactly the same myself - but I live in Canada, and it's snowing as I write this. The water snakes I have can not survive outside.
Michael

That's a great idea, but it wouldn't work in my area, because I live in swamp land. I will have to put in probably at least 10"-12" more substrate, above the ground, to be safe from flooding as it is. The only way that would work would be to water seal the flooring, slope the floor slightly and have it go into a drain.

Realisticly, The highest I would be able to put the enclosure would be about 40", and with the added substrate, it would be about 28"-30" from floor to top. I might be able to get a few extra inches around the walls, by digging inside near the walls down, leaving the middle kind of like an island and the sides like a ditch/pond when it rained. That could give me an extra 8"-12" possibly.

I just need to know what species could make use of this space, not be able to escape it, ones that are generally available for sale at pet shows, shops, or on the net. Water snakes are the only snakes I've never really kept as pets, with the exception of some iowa plains garters (maybe not a true water snake but close enough) and a few cottonmouths, neither of which were really pets. The large garter snake I had would never bite, but she surely whipped around like crazy, musking everywhere.

Will I need to build a concrete foundation before mortaring the blocks for the walls in the enclosure?

thanks

A concrete foundation should not be required at all. Basically, the foundation would be a footing below the frost line which in your case will be no more than 2-3 inches (depth of sod). Because earth shifts at the surface I would simply ensure that the wall starts at about 6 inches below grade for stability. In fact, you may not nessecarily have to mortar the wall. I've built many "rubble" walls using round river rock, broken limestone and even smashed up concrete ... walls like these have remained stable for centuries in Europe!
For example; The wall exterior is stone (8-12" dia.). The stone is backed with earth (packed, to support the stone). The interior smooth wall is plywood (painted, black if you wish it to disappear).
SMALL water snakes ... see Crimsonking's posts below ... your own Florida Mangroves! Likely the nicest, most gentle nerodia! I have a pair from Pierson Hill, sooooooo sweet!
And, perhaps your best option of all - simply build a habitat complete with pond and wintering quarters, rockeries, etc (go crazy) and invite wild critters to come to you! (If you build it, they will come.)
Michael

Where can I find a supply of mangrove water snakes in florida? I haven't seen any at the local exotic animal shows or pet shops, and only occasionally online.

Well, the greatest potential for that is to visit this forum regularly ... you'll be amazed at what opportunitues present themselves.
By the way, in the same category as Mangroves are Gulf Salt Marsh snakes.
Michael

Why not skip the enclosure entirely? Florida has a huge herp diversity locally so capitalize on that. You could literally turn your entire yard into a "herp friendly" zone. You'll attract amphibians to your water feature by keeping it natural. Allow grass and weeds to grow long, and provide at "beach" style end to the pond for easy access. Keep shrubs and low cover rather dense around your lot; this doesn't mean it has to be unkept, but I think you know what I mean. If you're in a busier suburban area, a solid stone wall will keep animals relatively withen your bounderies; but they have to want to stay. Give them everything they need.

Locally caught water snakes can be added along with other neat native animals.

Keep in mind that you'll have to provide caves/burrows deep enough to overwinter.

Ian

I live in a swamp actually, and really only have a few types of snakes that I see often, yellow rat snakes, the occasional cottonmouth (spot 1 about every 3 years), black racers, maybe a florida green water snake or 2, occasional crown snakes (although i haven't seen one in about 5 years). We probably have 1 or 2 diamondback water snakes and probably about 3 florida banded water snakes, 1 of which was living in my unkept 140 gallon pre-formed pond, until the first days of cold weather. not sure where that one is now. I'm sure there are more around that are just a bit better at hiding.

The reasons I want to do an enclosure, rather than just viewing them in the wild: For one, I would like to be able to see the snakes, frogs, toads, turtles, or whatever types of animals often. For another, I would like to be able to give refuge to local snakes, because almost every one here has a "kill all snakes" attitude.

I have worked several years in reptile rescue and relocating, and if this could help educate some of the locals about reptiles, it would just be that much greater.

Also, for me personally, it would be a great project and a great challenge, to build a mini, functional ecosystem. Although it may not be 100% self supporting, it would be partially self-supporting, and possibly later on, it could be expanded and become self supporting. Some times, people get tired of seeing animals locked up in small cages, and although it may not be possible to house any/all types of animals outdoors, whether it be because of humidity, temps, size, or security, there are other animals that could benefit from this type of system, for either being local or having similar conditions in their locality.

I have been a reptile keeper for around 25 years, and finally, I'm ready to take it to the next level. Hope you understand!

Sounds like a great idea, I would experiment with local species and see which manage to get out. I would avoid tree climbers, but not necessarily out of the question if you keep the inside walls smooth and of sufficient height, also avoid corners, a round enclosure would be ideal. I have seen this done before with just bricks and cement, so it can work.