Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone,
Are water monitors right now the largest commercially available lizard on the market?
Thanks,
Rob

Rob,

Although the Crocodile Monitor (V. salvadorii) is longer, the Asian Water Monitor (V. salvator salvator) is the largest (in mass) available commercially on the market. It has a record size of 321cm (just over 10ft 6in) found one time in Sri Lanka. Most commercially available Asian Water Monitors sold in the US come from Indonesia; they are smaller than their Thai-Malaysian mainland counterparts, but even the Thai-Malaysian (Asian) Water Monitors usually only reach much over 2.5 meters in the wild; no where near the 321cm record.

Cheers,

Michael

The croc monitor is the largest exagerated length monitor. The records with waters are 10ft 4 inches and the real record with croc monitors is 8ft 4 inches, the rest are rumors, exagerations, and lies, especially those 11,13,14,and 16ft croc monitors.

There are reports of V. salvadorii reaching lengths much longer than 8'4", and there is a 10 foot long animal on display at the Brownsville Zoo in S.E. Texas - the reports of 14-30 foot variety come from very Sincere people and scientists, anthropologists and a herpetologist too....so I would not call them all 'lies'.... there are a lot of things out there we need to learn about....and in the near future I will report on same.

Cheers,
markb

And someone posted pics and a real measurement of 8ft or almost 8ft in reality? I saved pictures someone had of 2 croc monitors claimed to be 9ft to 10ft long by the zoos, both were found to be much less, between 7-8ft. Maybe it was a European zoo, and one in California, cant remember off the top of my head.
Awhile back someone asked, as was done before for pics with something for size reference from 2 exagerated animals, I think it may have been Sam Sweet that posted both with real measurements from seeing them in person.
I still say if its claimed they should have no problem proving it, right? I emailed 3 sources of supposed 10ft croc monitors, all admitted they either had no crocs bigger than 4ft in their posession or "maybe they were around 7ft" was what they admitted, that or never responded.

Hi Shvar,
I got my info on the 10 foot size record from the Curator of Rertiles there - She is a wonderful woman with great integrity, and I trust her assessment, as she was is a damn good - but too busy keeper.

I do of course reports of larger Atrella in PNG, and I am reviewing those now - for their own merit - as many of these reports are 70-90 years old, but fascinating accounts.

Cheers,
markb

I was told they had one over 10 foot, so I went and saw for myself. They(at the time) had a giant male. Very well could have been near or over ten foot, it was huge. It made my 8 footer look like a baby. I hear it has since passed away. It did not look all that happy when I was there.

I think 10 footers are not a problem. But those stretched out 14 to 30 footers, you know who claims of, are pure fiction. That is, there is absolutely no proof.

Besides, wasn't the question the "largest" monitor, not the longest, which of couse is without question a KD. Cheers FR

sir,

Unless you have looked at the 'evidence' and reports for such claims, can you really 'can't' make the following statement? You could say "I have not seen or heard of such big V. salvadorii" - but to say "There is absolutely no proof" = you are wrong - there is actually abit of material written about these animals from anthropologists, zoologists, ecologists, and yes, even herpetologists...so your commentary on this, like the comment on 'the Sahara Desert being on the Equator' is also false - try getting your facts straight, otherwise you are being incorect and misleading...

... those stretched out 14 to 30 footers, you know who claims of, are pure fiction. That is, there is absolutely no proof...

As for Baltimore Zoo - it closed down its reptile department, so any reptiles there are gone....

mbayless

What proof is. You consistantly believe written or verbal data is proof, which is not the case. The only proof of a record size or maximum size is the animals. As in, the specimen.

There are no specimens of that size, 14 foot or larger in any collection, museum or live, is there? Until there is, there is no proof. The AZA or any other group, has ever recorded a specimen fo that size either. Sorry sir, but thats the way it goes. There has to BE an animal that size and that animal has to be measureable, as in a preserved specimen or alive. Sorry but I did not make the rules.

So until there is, they do not officially attain those lenghts, and they fall into the 60 pythons and 40 foot crocs, etc, theres lots written about those too, but also no specimen. Good Luck in your writtings, FR

The question was actually about the largest commercially available lizard on the market. Although there are some V. komodoensis in the hands of private collectors, they are not exactly commercially available.

Cheers,

Michael

The largest croc monitor I have personally seen was 9' 0", in a private collection near San Diego. Jeff Lemm and I measured it last July, at which time it weighed 33 lbs. As Mark notes, there are several reports of larger animals from New Guinea, one relating to an animal held captive at Kikori that Roy Mackay told me he carefully reckoned to be about 12' TL, but he did not have the option to measure it.

There are so many captive crocs that haven't gotten beyond 8.5-9' that it pays to be skeptical about any claims for even 10'. We simply do not know if there are localities where crocs get bigger than that -- it's not out of the question, but has yet to be shown.

Daniel Bennett stated in one of his books that during a long term study of croc monitors in the wild throughout New Guinea there was not one measured by anyone even 8ft long, all of the claims of longer specimens were never able to be proven by anyone but the one person claiming "the big one got away" before they could get pictures, measure it, or any other living person could ever see it, my favorite was the well respected explorer who caught a big one and it was discovered later that he never existed.
Its funny, just like the claims of 30ft plus snakes, why has the money never been claimed yet, its in the millions for any snake dead or alive 30ft or longer.
A good friend has a reptile rescue, he responds to calls and offers to give him 5-6ft niles, 5-7ft green iguanas, and 4-8ft alligators constantly that mysteriously shrink to 1-3ft at most and some are even tegus. Some of these offers come from well respected, highly educated people. This friend even offered to give or sell his 9ft alligator to many many people who say they have 7-8 footers or had longer, to find out their largest gator was only ever 3-4ft long and they arent serious when they see the big boy in person or pictures of him.
At least the 10ft 2 inch komodo has remains that prove its existance.
Sorry, Im just skeptical of most claims of "giants" when they shrink so much in person or disappear into thin air. Id love to see real proof of their existance.

Would really like to know how you know all this stuff that nobody else does. There isn't any "long term study" on croc monitors, and Daniel makes no such claim.

After a fair bit of correspondence and talking to folks, I have found four (4) biologists, total, who have ever seen a wild croc monitor, and in each case the sightings were only for a few seconds. "It ran away fast" is the total information from these folks.

What "long term study" did you have in mind?

four sightings by biologists, and hundreds upon hundreds of wild caught croc monitors in petshops in about every major city in every state in the U.S.(this means someone has seen them and commonly too), It reminds me of our old converstions, obviously someone is not looking in the right places.

This has to be common sense. If you want to learn something about a animal, ask someone working with that animal, it does not have to be a biologist. I have a name in my wallet on a business card of a fella I use to share a booth with that has seen hundreds of croc monitors in the wild. He taught me how to hold wild ones very easily without getting bit or crapped on. It was so simple and practical.

The solution is simple, there are thousands of people who have seen them, pick one or more of those to dicuss croc monitors.

I do understand, biology is a language, and bioligist prefer to talk to those that speak their own language, but on rare occasions when bioligist have little knowledge of the subject, they should step outside of these preferences. Theres a huge world out there, full of monitors and people who know about them. Cheers FR

Frank,

So then what you are saying is to take the word of a person who claims to know the species well eg a keeper/dealer/catcher.

Some how quantify the data/infomation and use that. How can I trust the person to give me the right answer or even if he/she knows how to get the right answer?

I see plenty of "so called experts" (usually people who keep various species in captivity)" identify species (apparently by using keys, etc) only to be proven wrong when photograph is produced. Its not restricted to photographs but measurements as well.

It was interesting last week when I was conducting a training camp on field Techs in Reptile Surveying. One of the exercises I conducted was relating to estimating weights and svl lengths of reptiles captured....It was surprising how many people (Myself included) where out on some the their estimations (all specimens where subsquently weighed and measured).

I suppose what I am saying is that assume nothing and prove everything!....Exactly how many Croc monitors has your friend seen?...Its funny the figure hundreds when counted up the hundreds tend to shrink in number much like the inches when the tape gets closer to the Goanna in Question.

Regards,

Scott Eipper

First why would you believe anyone or have a need to believe anyone? If it were me, and I was interested in doing field work, I would investigate the folks who are finding lots and lots of them. I would make friends with them(even if I totally disagreed with their methods or purpose) I would then weight there information and test it. That is, go see for myself.

I totally agree with you. I would not take casual information as truth. But to investigate the unknown means, you must use all available tools. On this subject, its abundantly clear, there are plenty of wild croc monitors being found. So someone is doing it. These croc monitors are taking modern methods to reach the shores of Europe and the States. So they are exposed to folks who do such things. I would think, gaining their trust would be of service. Then investigate for myself. Simple hey. FR

Check his book, its in both. As far as dates, or pages, or details of whos study I could care less at this point. I quoted directly from Daniels site, it was removed for whatever reason.
I asked a question before on this matter, why is it that as you have said, only 4 biologists you know of have even seen wild croc monitors, yet at any reptile show Ive been to in the last 2 years I can guarrantee that Ive seen 1-5 wild caught croc monitors, and 1-3 long term captives available at each show, I can also find without too much effort several croc monitors in captivity. Someone finds them rather easily and sends a few hundred or so into the US alone every year, maybe more. Seems that the locals are getting paid to capture them for the pet trade, yet they dont seem to offer much help to science, why?
My original response to this was info that came from Mark Bayless less than a year ago when he agreed that all claims of croc monitors longer than 8ft 4inches cannot be proven, also from a few months ago a discussion with another individual here when you posted 2 pics of croc monitors, you said they were the longest you ever saw, both were reputed to be 9ft plus but they were both 8ft or less in reality. I still have the pictures saved from that discussion, the one was a preserved museum specimen if I recall, and the other was in a zoo alive. Personally I dont feel like searching back to find the post to get your exact words or the exact locations of either.
According to a discussion a few years ago with Mark Bayless he stated that the longest proven croc monitor ever was Jody Piepers 8ft 4 inch male, all others were unproven claims, this was his response to someone mentioning the 9-16ft examples.
Now, if this has changed since that time then by all means update me, but dont tell me Im lieing when Im quoting you.
Also if you do not agree with the info published by Daniel Bennett, then say so, dont say Im lieing or making it up.
You keep croc monitors yourself, post about them, lets see some new pictures, tell us how they are doing.
I have in no way attempted nor do I want to argue or see insults traded.
Have I said to you that your making up lies and posting them, fabricating information that noone else has ever heard of? No, in fact Ive quoted those who are disagreeing with me, your one of those, so which is the truth, what you say now or then?
have a nice day.

OK, here’s the issue. First you said that “Daniel Bennett stated in one of his books that during a long term study of croc monitors in the wild throughout New Guinea…”, and I said there is no long-term study. Now you say “Check his book, its in both.” Fine, that’s a definite statement. Now here’s the link: http://mampam.50megs.com/monitors/salvadorii.html . Daniel doesn’t refer to any long term (or even short term) study, because there isn’t one – got that now? It doesn’t work to say “As far as dates, or pages, or details of whos study I could care less at this point”, unless you still think there is such a study. Isn’t, OK, so don’t claim there is.

Next, I’ve never posted a picture on this forum. On another forum I posted two photos of the croc Jeff and I measured last July, because it is significantly larger than any of the others that have been actually measured, as far as I know now. That’s the 9’ animal, and that’s why I posted the pics. Yes, it is longer than the 8’ 4” previous record – numbers like these do change, and that’s why I made my first post in this thread. I do not understand your comment here, “so which is the truth, what you say now or then?” Both were true, yes? Maybe tomorrow someone will show us a 10’ croc and if so, good, it will be true number three.

One of the deleted posts addressed your third comment, which Jody also misunderstood. It is true that hundreds of crocs are exported annually, and also true that very few biologists have seen a wild croc out bush. These are not contradictory statements. There are tens of thousands of subsistence hunters living in lowland New Guinea, and in the Papuan half some of those hunters are aware that a live croc can be sold to an animal trader in a town. Probably most of those animals die before they are exported, so let’s say that a few thousand a year are sold to traders alive. Do ten people bring in 200 crocs each, or do 2,000 people each bring in one? More likely the latter is closer to the truth. If we accept that, it means that bush-savvy guys who are out hunting and trapping every day of the year catch one or two croc monitors a year. The fact that there are lots of crocs being imported does not make them common or easy to find, any more than seeing hundreds of diamonds in a jewelry store should cause you to think that diamonds are common in Africa. Taking that further, a random African cannot tell you much about where to find diamonds. The Papuan hunters who catch crocs are mainly getting them by accident in snares set for any animal they can eat, one or two a year in dozens of snares they set every day. As I said previously, these folks don’t have the luxury of (or the interest in) observing the natural history of what they regard as meat or income on the hoof – it might get away. This doesn’t mean that no one knows anything, but the disappointing fact is that most bush folks can’t tell you a lot from their own experience. “Mi lukim i ron igo antap bikpela diwai” (I saw it run up a big tree) is likely the best they can say.

Your first two paragraphs define and explain why the source of his comments were inaccurate, even thought his comments about size were the same as yours(the answer to the question). But your third paragraph is based on assumption. Lots of assumptions. Which may or may not be true. Just like SHvars comments. So I see no difference between you and SHvar in how you come about this.

And to add, its so far off topic its pathetic. As It was pointed out to me by mrcota its was about commerically available monitors. Thanks FR

"And to add, its so far off topic its pathetic. As It was pointed out to me by mrcota its was about commerically available monitors. Thanks FR"

Let me try to wrap my brain around this. His statements that commercial availability of monitors does not equal an abundance of people finding them in the wild is off topic? You first said:
"four sightings by biologists, and hundreds upon hundreds of wild caught croc monitors in petshops in about every major city in every state in the U.S.(this means someone has seen them and commonly too)"

So you brought up the commercial availability, not him. Maybe you can clarify this for me? In any case, commercial availability of monitors seems to be right in line with the topic of keeping monitors in captivity to me. I think this would be relevant to the forum.

Your letting your emotions run away with you. I said, I too was off subject, and was reminded by mrcota that I was off topic, so I regained direction. Thanks mrcota. FR

"Your letting your emotions run away with you. I said, I too was off subject, and was reminded by mrcota that I was off topic, so I regained direction. Thanks mrcota. FR"

I still fail to see why this is off topic though. This forum is to "post messages or questions pertaining to all aspects and issues regarding the keeping, breeding, health, and conservation of Monitor lizards." I think the source and abundance of the wild caught salvadorii would fall within the scope of that, especially on the issue of conservation. Maybe it's not quite in line with the original post topic, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

But it would do better in a new topic. That way everyone is on the same page to what is being talked about. Otherwise things get taken out of context (such as your post).

There is a fine point here Kevin, Mr Sweet is asking SHvar to be totally accurate and unerroring. I guess the term would be scientific with his answers, yet he, Mr. Sweet, wandered of the question of the thread. Which is not very accurate of him. I do understand its very common to wander forth and back. But Mr. Sweet is asking us to be exacting. Then so should he. I know I wander all the time, but he is reprimanding us for that, yet he is.

As in his third paragraph. All there is assumption and rationalization. There are no real facts as to how many people have collected what. He simply made that up. Hes very good at that. Again, this is what hes asking us not to do.

Mind you, I do not believe this forum is suppose to be exacting and scientific, Its a keepers forum. Its kinda like civil law vs. Fed law. One is a lot looser then the other. The laws of biology apply to both, but surely are not practiced the same way. And they don't have to be.

So yes, its common and normal for us to slip and wander off topic(sometimes even go stupid). But Mr Sweet demands more of us, so I demand more of him. Thanks FR

Diamonds are not expensive because they are rare.....they are expensive because one company owns the majority of them and limits the supply for commercial use, which raises they price. Shouldnt back up your point about a low number of monitors with an anology where they are plenty of diamonds to go around. Just doesnt help your case.