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so it seems pretty debatable if horned toads HAVE to be on a strict dient of ants. ive heard that the reason they should still be fed ants is because of formic acid that they may need for some reason?

i was wonderign if somone had the knowledge of how much formic acid they need i ntheir diet if they could just obtain some and put it into their water? ubviously not enoug hto hurt them in any way but just enough for it to contribute to their health.

so if this would be possible, wouldnt poepel be able to feed them a non ant diet without it being bad for them.

also wodnering if anyone has actually made a suppliment just for horned toads? cus i bet you could feed them a different diet as long as you had their food dusted with a proper suppliment just for horned toads.

Hi Cat,
This is an age old debate and yes, it is still in question. The problem is, there has been no formal study that I am aware of that provides a conclusive answer as to their requirements. We just don't know at this point whether it is formic acid or other compounds in ants that make up the special needs of horned lizards.
It is known however that they appear to do better with ants in their diet. I have talked to several folks who have managed to keep a horned lizard alive for two or three years on an antless diet, but they never had breeding success which to me is an indicator of good health.
It is possible for you to live on Fritos, Twinkies and beer but it's probably not in your best interest. Not to be too flippant. I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

I think Lester said it best in this post:

It is likely not just a question of acid. There are other major components in ants, along with whatever typical nutrients you might find in any insect. This little blurb describes some of those components.

"The mammalian toxicity of the potently algogenic venom of the ant Pogonomyrmex badius is greater than that reported for any other insect venom. This enzyme-rich venom contains high concentrations of phospholipase A2 and B, hyaluronidase, acid phosphatase, lipase, and esterases. This hemolytic secretion from the poison gland produces unusual symptoms in mammals and appears to have been evolved as a deterrent for vertebrate predators."

Other considerations in play are the blood factors in horned lizards that actually detoxify ant venom. It is reasonable to think that this factor may play a role in extracting the nutrients from the ants.

Here is the link for the quote below:

"Discussion

Comparing LD50 values of a test organism (in this case, mice) can be a useful tool to objectively assess the toxicity of insect venoms; however, this method has its limitations. The values obtained in mice reveal a relative toxicity scale for different toxins in mice only. They do not reflect how the same toxins would rank for another species (such as humans). For example, the LD50 value of P. maricopa venom against a lizard, Phrynosoma cornutum, which is a predator of P. maricopa, was much higher than in mice (162 mg/kg). When one other lizard, Sceloporus jarrovii, was tested, the venom had an LD50 value of 28 mg/kg. These results suggest that P. cornutum has evolved resistance to the harvester ant venoms and can exploit the ants as a food resource (Schmidt et al. 1989). In another species of harvester ant, P. badius, there were high levels of an enzyme, phospholipase A2, which is also present in honey bee and wasp venoms (Schmidt & Blum 1978a). Although cross-reactivity to honey bee and wasp venoms may be involved in the response of humans to Pogonomyrmex envenomation, in those cases that have been studied cross-reactions to vespid and formicid venoms have not been found (Schmidt 1986b). Interestingly, the venom of P. badius is not particularly lethal against larval insects (Schmidt & Blum 1978b). Since harvester ants are non-predatory, it suggests that their venom has evolved from being used in prey capture as in other ant species (Schmidt 1986a), to defense against vertebrates; hence their power against humans and other vertebrates. "

It might be a great benefit to horned lizard keepers to have a powder you could put on a cricket to make it chemically resemble an ant, but it may not be as simple as figuring out how much formic acid to use. It would probably take quite a significant study indeed. This is still an unanswered question.
Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.Com

In order to produce healthy animals, it seems to me the opus would be to as best as one could develop a feeding rgimium that exacts what the Horned Lizard eats in the wild. While it is true some horned lizards need less than others, it certianly is mainstay of all horned lizards. Most of the people that work with horned lizards on a long term basis would again ask the question, why would you even go to using formic acid when you can can provide ants which have amino acids and other factors that maintain health? I know it's a debate, but having done some experimenting over the years with differing species, I believe it is not in the best interest of any horned lizard to leave his diet void of physical ants which have other chemicals and amino acids that apply to their overall health ) Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.com

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Thats the idea i have come having as well. If its what the main staple in the wild is.. why venture away from that?

But the thing that makes me wish we did have a formic acid powder or somthing that could match what makes up an ant is because of the people who are unfortunate and do not have harvester ants to thier disposal.

I live in canada and we do not have those here, and i cannot get them in the winter..(although i beg and plead lol)

It is not because i want to comprimize with the health of my animal for covienince... Its because i care so much about my Hl's that i wish this was availiable.
Because i live here and i dont have a Harvester nest in my backyard, does that mean i am not allowd to keep and learn from these lizards?

I just wish it was easier somtimes, I pay through the teeth to get ants here, usually loose a lot too. But i do it because i love to observe these lizards, and i enjoy keeping them.

Just my thoughts lately... A lot of people seem to argue with me when i bring up the suppliment question. I seem to get the sense that they think i am some lazy owner.. >.> But that might be just me.

You don't hibernate your HL's in the winter? This is an easy way to eliminate your problem with ants in the winter.
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Phrynosoma.Com

Doing that now actually... this would be my first year, last year i didnt.
I am having an issue though, with the shorter lighting hours my HL's seem to be not burrowing down. They will sit and wait for the light to come on.
They dont sem to like the playsand ever since i changed it over from the black reptile store stuff.

But still here, we dont have good weather till around april and that is still a bit cold. I guess a month late would be alright?

"why vary from what they eat in the wild" same reason we have suppliments for other reptiles, even many "experts" dont feed there herps EXACTLY what they get in the wild. most people dont go to the tropics and get the leaves and fruit of the trees that iggies eat, people dont go to austrailia and catch every bug a bearded dragon has in its diet. also, most people dont go out and shoot rabbits and deer, then bring them home and throw them on the floor for their dogs to eat, dog food is one of the least natural diets but almost everyone gives it to their dog anyway.

simply, it would be easier for people to dust an ant replicant suppliment onto normal feeder bugs that people could get at any local pet store. no matter that you think, people will keep getting horned lizards and keep feeding them antless diets. i think it would probably help alot if there was some kind of suppliment so people who dont think they have to feed them ants wont accidentally neglect their lizard. people may say "then they shouldnt get that lizard if they dont know it has to have ants". look at them, horned lizards are beautifull, many people go catch them and try to keep them and unfortunatly dont care to research them.. but i bet if they were at the pet store getting it crickets, they might just see a suppliment on the shelf just for them, and they may think "hey i should by that!" it is unfortunate that people get animals that they have no idea how to care for, but it will always happen.. i think suppliments and domestic diets help try to make up for it. of course some people are too dumb to even get those suppliments even tho its so easy!

but to the first guy, indeed you know your stuff! that does answer my question. hopefully someone someday will have the time, money, and interest to work on suppliments just for this type of lizard you never know.
i think it hasnt happened yet because of the people with the "there is no need to change its natural diet" attitude, if everyone thinks you should only feed them ants, then no one will experiment. its always good to be a bit open minded.

but lucky for the lizards if i want one, i know to order ants online, but some people dont care about a reptile enough to order it spesific food online, it sucks i know.

What can I say Cat. You are pretty much right with your post here. I did have one guy contact me about creating a horned lizard food who did produce petfoods on a commercial level, but it didn't go anywhere. I think the target audience is too small now to market too, condering the work involved in creating something new.
Maybe it will happen in the future. I actually have some ideas, but a lot of details need to be worked out and I don't know that I will have the time to pursue it this season.
We'll see.....
Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.Com

well good luck!!!! it sucks to see there is such a lack of research on these lizards compaired to other more popular reptiles. hopefully you will find out some imporant stuff!

One mistake you make is comparing a horned lizard to other animals that are in the herpticulture. Even zoo's have a hard time with horned lizards. One of our well known biologists set up a horned lizard arrangement at one of the California zoos, and he told them exactly what to do and how to follow through. He took care of them and oversaw the operation for several months, no sooner than he would turn it over to the zoo and the animals would start going down. There are many of us that feed our horned lizards other insects as well as ants, but depending on the species ants are a nornmal and necessary part of the animals diet regimium, I would love to have a proven supplement that works, but the research and actual application and end product may cost as much or more than the normal regimium.....
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Phrynosoma.com

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i didnt make any mistake, why dont you be condesending to someone else.

I'm sorry that you felt attacked, I merly stated that many people don't see the signifigance of horned lizard husbandry in comparison to other lizards. My comment was not a put down, and it was not meant to be in any spirit except what I said that was factual and too the point. Cerianly we all are still learning as much as we can with respect to husbandry and there is always new stuff that comes up, so I am not on the forum nor part of Phrynosoma.com to be mean spirited or anything like that. I only meant to relay what I do know about some of the situations people have found themselves in, it's your animal and your choice as to what you feed them, if my statement looked like a putdown I aplogize for that, but I also stand by what I put down as factual and based on many years of experience with horend lizards. We all don't always agree, on grey areas with respect to horned liards, I see this as a grey area and it's certianly my privilage to disagree based on my own personal experience, but nothing I said was meant as a put down, I have spent countless hours helping people with the husbandry of their animals and my mission is on Phrynosma.com, I try and stay consistant with that mission. I hope you or others thinking in that direction do come up with a viable option someday...... It will take a lot of research for sure.

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Phrynosoma.com

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Hey repto.. Is that a collard lizard??
Very nice photo

Good points Kat, Thats something i have been trying to express to other keepers... But never found the right words. LOL

Cable, up here i've noticed that a lot of people are "discovering" Hl's and they have no clue on thier care. I always point them to your site as its helped out so much.

Just yesterday i had another person PM me on our local forums and ask about my hls.
At each reptile show which happens 6 times a year i usually can count about 5-10 Hl's at the show. I like to see how many come in and maybe catch some buyers to give them your site information.
If you like i can give you some exact numbers in febuaray and future shows.
This show is the one that usually supports most of our breeders here in the ontario area.

Yes, I would be interested. What kind of HL's, platyrhinos mostly?
Thanks for the site refferals. It is much appreciated.
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Phrynosoma.Com

Alright i will let you know

I know of one importer who has three platyrhinos atm in the Port credit area of ontario.

The next show will be in feb, so if the weather is good i will let you know. ^^

I am not against a supplement, but in my opinion a supplement could not just be formic acid. What ever horned lizards get from ants, it's not just formic acid. They are designed to eat ants as well. So don't get me worng no matter who you are, I just think it prudent to follow after what is known to sork, and if you want to develop a possible "addiditive" go for it, but I think it's going to take some serious research to come up with this. Only alternative that has been talked about is taking whole ants and extracting the juice from live ants, a process that would be very costly and would have to be tested over many years. Sincve the digestive tract is designed for ants as well, I am just curious in my thinking of the long time feeding of another insect staple and how that is going to ware on the horned lizards health. It certianly up for debate and I just at this moment in time from what I know believe that their is no substitute foir the real thing.......Cheers!!
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Phrynosoma.com

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alright then if there is no subsitute for the real thing, why dont you feed every oen of your pets exactly what they get in the wild? and for that matter, you should go on a diet that is exactly the same as what early man ate. you cant apply your attitude to one animal, if one animal deserves its pure and natural food sorse everythign else does too. one animal is not better then the other, they are al lanimals and deserve the same treatment. this is why i belive they shoud lcoem up with a suppliment for them because peopel are goig nto feed them crap they shouldnt have no matter what you or anyone else says or thinks. heaven forbid soemone has an idea, oh no soemone has a good idea! lets beat them into the ground and keep ourselves in the stoneage!!!

for the ones who keep repeatign themsleves, if you feed any of your reptiels calcium/vitamin suppliments you are a hypocrate! why is it wrogn to wish soemoen woudl coem up with a suppliment for one animal, yet people feed all of these other reptiles suppliments. why the favoratism and hypocritical beliefs?

i am doen with this topic, besides for mthe other guy you all keep sayign the same thing over and over, its very boring i might aswell just read one of you peoples posts and i would have practically read them all.

I don't understand your anger? I just apologized to you and told you that I am not putting you down. I can accept your opinion and thats fine--what else do you want?
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Phrynosoma.com

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