Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I have not posted here in sometime but I have recently had some problems with my 4 year old male Ambilobe Panther refuse to eat. I believe he has parasites and have purchase Parazap and have begun to use. I thought that he was just being picky at first because he wasn't eating as many lobster roaches and then finally stopped. I then tried crickets, which he wasn't interested in. I then got silkworms which he devoured for about 2 days and then stopped again. Wouldn't touch hornworms or day old pinky. I have recently begun force feeding, which he doesn't seem to mind all that much, but I was wondering if anyone had a good force feeding diet to get some weight back on him. I have been mashing up silkworms, roaches and adding a carbohydrate baby food such as mangos and a little gatorade for electrolytes (my vet instructed gatorade). The one problem I have is that I can't get it mashed enough that it will flow through the dropper.
Does anyone have any ideas to get some weight on Pablo...I need response as soon as possible.
Thanks!
Justin
-----
1.0 Picasso panther chameleon (Pablo)
1.0 D. Tinctorius (Cobalt V.)
0.1.1 D. Auratus
0.0.1 Golddust Day Gecko

Forgot to mention,...I've heard of using pediolyte, but I also know that the bottle says you are supposed to use it within 48 hours(?) of opening it.
-----
1.0 Picasso panther chameleon (Pablo)
1.0 D. Tinctorius (Cobalt V.)
0.1.1 D. Auratus
0.0.1 Golddust Day Gecko

Some questions for you. Why do you think he has parasites? He's cb right? Has he had a fecal exam done? Any insect prey can have some parasites, but a healthy cham should be able to handle them without trouble. Get a fecal done first. ParaZap or any other anti-parasite med is a POISON, and you should not be stressing an animal without being sure it is absolutely necessary. Some parasite meds can increase appetite, but it is really temporary and the stress the med causes to their system is not worth that. Are you weighing him? Without knowing if he's losing weight you may be worrying needlessly. Many chams don't eat as much during winter. Try offering some "interesting" mobile prey like houseflies. Chams often get bored with food, but they also simply get bored. Having to watch, stalk, aim and shoot at moving prey often gets them intrigued. If you are feeding every day, switch to every other day. A bit of hunger helps and a healthy drinking cham can go a week without eating much at all. You should not be using Pedialyte or any other rehydration liquids if he's drinking freely. Plain water is best. Pedialyte should only be given to a cham that is not drinking on its own and is trying to metabolize meds like Baytril. I find the best way to deal with Pedialyte is to either find the Pedialyte "pops" that you can make up in smaller quantities, freeze, then thaw when needed, or pour the prepared mixture into ice cube trays, freeze, then thaw one as needed.

A few things you could try:

-Supplement with ExoTerra Electrodize. Increases appeties, hydrates and restores electolytes. Chameleons love this.

-Feed butterworms (For added Calcium), waxworms (for fatty nutrients) and hornworms (for vitamins, nutrients and liquids)

-Check over you husbandry. Basking temperature, ambient temperature, watersources, has the view from the enclosure changed.

-Have a vet do bloodwork and or fecal exams.

Good luck.
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I forgot to mention, that a syringe is really useful for force feeding.

Although you should be 'assist feeding' if possible. Open the mouth, put in part of a worm, and back off. Hope he chews and swallows. Don't force feed hornworms though, they can bite. let the chameleon shoot these, since they often bite down killing the worm right after catching them.
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

might you be thinking of superworms? They have strong mandibles and can clasp to a cham's lip, face, eye if given a chance, but can also be easily removed (by you). Hornworms, and most other Lepidoptera larave, have the mouthparts to bite and eat leaves and fruit, not a cham. Just wanted to clarify

lele
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele, this is something I overheard when talking to Mellers experts. They described how the mellers chameleons eat worms rather slowly, and that often they would spit hornworms out because they were bitten.

I have never used hornworms, so this is up in the air to me.
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Can anyone follow up on this? I am interested in this. I do not have access to Hornworms.

Also, I'd like to add, that a single butterworm chewed an inch diameter hole in my fabric cage screening, in less than 1.5 hours.
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Will,

Yes, I will follow up - I made the statement because it is a fact. I have been rearing Lepidoptera for many years with the Manduca spp. (hornworms) being the one that got me into breeding Saturniids (wild silk moths). Some Lep caterpillars can bite each other if in crowded conditions (rarely in the wild, mainly in captive rearing, silkworms will do this, too) but that is because their "skin" is soft and easily torn. Its horn, which is a firm yet pliable protuberance, cannot cause any problem either. It is used in nature as a defense mechanism to deter predators (primarily birds).

That said, they do "spit" which is actually regurgitation of their food to deter predators, too. Many caterpillars do this along with thrashing their head around. The "lowly" caterpillar is truly a fascinating creature to study. I care for hundreds of them every summer and never tire of watching them!

As for the butterworms, they will not bite your cham (though can get a mild grip) but they are serious wood borers! I have a friend in FL who owns a framing gallery (and has herps) and said that she has had wood damaged due to escaped butterworms.

lele

-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I my findings with horn worms, which I feed regularly, they do not "bite", but they are rathers strong with the suction cups on their feet, and I think when they stick to the Chams, it startles them and they spit it out. Stitch refused silkworms for the longest time because he went after a large silkie and got it half way in his mouth, the other half fought like crazy to get out, and was clinging to the side of his face, He looked terrified!! Spit it out and didn't eat them again for about 2 months. Horn worms are ALOT stronger and stickier, I'll sometimes find one that is half chewed up in thier cages, BUT it is almost always the back half that is chewed. I think the front half is the fighting half and if the chams don't stun the worms by tounging the head of the worm and knocking them out, then the worms will put a bigger fight and the chams will spit them out rather than take a worm beating.
-----
Feenie

1.1 vieled cham.- Stitch and Rana (Missing you,Chloe)
2.0 Panther chams- Lou and Yosamite Sam
1.0 Giant Day Gecko- Mr. Gecko
0.1 Aussi Whites Tree frog- Frumpy
1.0 Peacock tree frog- Igaro
0.1 Reeds tree frog- Dottie
0.0.2 New River Tinc. Dart Frogs- Tinker and Bell
2.2 Canines Junior-pitbull chiuahuah mix, Jose- chiuahuah, Pearl- Staffie, and Daisy- Red nose Pit- foster child
1.0 Fiance- Trent species unknown
and the list grows on.............

hehe, I had a similar thing happen with one of mine. Went a week or so after that incident.I know what you mean about that "horrified" expression...

I didn't realise that they might have been talking about the sticking instead of 'biting'. Sorry for the mix up!
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

OK, not that you asked, but here is a cool little science lesson on caterpillars. If you look at their feet, you will see the first set, which are near their mouthparts, of 3 pair small and "pointy." These are the true legs, which they will retain as adult moths (or butterflies). The set of 4 in the middle of their bodies and the single set at the very rear are called "prolegs" and are lost during metamorphosis. The true set are used for grasping food as well as directing silk from the spinnerets when creating cocoon (which in the case of hornworms they don't, but silkies do) or to create silken pad to secure them for molting. The prolegs are used for grasping the branch. They have hairs on their prolegs and have a grip that is amazingly strong! I have had 5” long cecropia cats on a finger or branch and have to really work to get them off! Sometimes I’ll get 2 pair off and while working on the other two the first two latch on again! Lol! They work similarly to velcro. The more you handle these creatures there are some tricks to removing them, but always have to be gentle – yet firm! Here are a couple of close-ups (not hornworms – cecropia and polyphemus)

-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Thanks for the lesson! They are sticky little suckers!! When I feed the horn worms to my chams, I put them on the smoother jungle vine. It's easier for the Chams to pull them off. Once they get stuck on the screen, they are very hard to take off. I usually can get the tops "legs" off then have to "tickle" the prolegs to get them to unstick! It's a very tricky business.... feeding these chams!!!
-----
Feenie

1.1 vieled cham.- Stitch and Rana (Missing you,Chloe)
2.0 Panther chams- Lou and Yosamite Sam
1.0 Giant Day Gecko- Mr. Gecko
0.1 Aussi Whites Tree frog- Frumpy
1.0 Peacock tree frog- Igaro
0.1 Reeds tree frog- Dottie
0.0.2 New River Tinc. Dart Frogs- Tinker and Bell
2.2 Canines Junior-pitbull chiuahuah mix, Jose- chiuahuah, Pearl- Staffie, and Daisy- Red nose Pit- foster child
1.0 Fiance- Trent species unknown
and the list grows on.............

-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

- the second pic
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

hope my follow up didn't sound snotty! I just re-read and it sort of did didn't mean to!
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Haha, if anyone is the king of "Snotty but not meant to be messages" its me. I try not to, but somehow, no matter how many times you read your message over before you click submit, immediately after... Its all the wrong wording.

Anyways, I wasn't offended. I live for knowledge like this. Alwas fascinating. Thoes beasts are incredible. I love to take silkworms and just play with them... (Am I wierd?) they feel like suede marshmellows!

Anyways, keep in touch, and tell me waht camera/lense setup you are using for those macros?
-----
CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

you are right though, the are quite soft. I am used to things with knobs and hairs and bumps and stinging spines on critters that get 3-5" long!!

I know I said poly in post but the second one was a luna cat. they look amazingly similar as cats and so totally different as adult moths. That's one of the cool, and strang, things about those two. The luna is green with long tails and the poly is shades of brown and has amazing "blue" eyes on their wings, yet as larva the only difference is one has a brown head and the other green, and the spiracular line and segment markings are slightly different. They do have very different "personalities" though! The luna are rather rambuncious and the poly's are very peaceful as cats.

OK, this is a cham forum! The photo of the luna was taken with a a Nikon Coolpix 4300, which I broke in July and replced it with a Nikon Coolpix 7600. The two cecropia photos were taken with that one. The nice thing about the cats are that they stay in one place so it is rather easy to get quite close.

Haha, if anyone is the king of "Snotty but not meant to be messages" its me. I try not to, but somehow, no matter how many times you read your message over before you click submit, immediately after... Its all the wrong wording.

I hear ya! Doesn't that suck? Then you email to apologize and half the time the person never took it that way!
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I guess I forgot some information. I have not yet been to the vet yet and plan on going on Thursday. I have just been SOOOO busy and I feel very bad but the only herp vet it about an hour away and it just hasn't been feasible with my last week of school (many projects, etc.) and working. I was going to go last week because I had some time but they said I needed a fresh fecal...none was to be found.
Again, I have tried crickets, roaches, silkworms, hornworms, day old pinkie, and he hardly shows interest. He was drinking fine but now that has gone down as well. Although I have not weighed him, he is very skinny and I believe he's hydrated. I will lay off the Parazap until I get him to a vet. I will try to get him to him some more tonight...

Sorry your having problems, I agree with everything said by everyone, I know my panther seems to ignore food if given to often. Every other day he seems much more interested.

And a fly or if you live somewhere that you can still get a grasshopper, oh my gosh my guy goes nuts over them.

Sure hope his appetite picks up soon, and ya get things Tip - Top for him. Best wishes, and let us know how ya make out.

-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve