Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all, I have an important question regarding the indigo bloodline, to alter or not, you see some of you have been waiting for this post for a long time. and I can assure you all this is no joke! I used to pay the state of fl for a permit to collect and sell reptiles, but am too busy to collect anymore and dont need the pennies it brought me in either, but I still love to hunt just for fun... anyway here it is! I know of a spot where indigos are as common as racers and gopher turtle holes are also very abundant, and yesterday I seen from 15 feet away a albino indigo about 5 foot long going into a hole and waited a half an hour for it to come back out but it must have been startled by me, anyway do ya all think I should persue this falty gene for the bloodline or as my logic has told me all my life "leave it in the woods"? whats your call?......joe b.

There is no one stupid enough to reply to your post except me. A picture is all that the Law will allow and that would be cool. How do you know it is not a Bull Snake, Rat Snake and the like? What you have sugested in your post is illegal.

me thinks joe b. joking.

albino or not, it is still a threatened species and federally protected. i'll pay you NOT to collect it! leave it alone.

matt

Guess I am not the only person willing to address the above post. Whoever monitors this sight aught to pull the above post. Makes legit breeders look like morons.

.

np

Well just so everyone knows I really had no intention of chaseing this albino for money and I have never owned an albino anything and further would not personally, want this faulty gene out there in the pet trade. But I was just dieing to see the responce to my find and I'm a creditable person. I walked into a clearing 2 acres on a sandhill full of tourtise holes and insted of stoping and scoping the area I just kept walking and by the time i got to the middle my eye cought movement 15 feet ahead and what I saw was 20 inches of un doubtably indigo tail color was orange-tan and too thick to be a ratsnake and trust me no ratsnake would live for long in this spot. in 10 years of hunting for a pinesnake south of tampa I have seen 14 indigos in this one spot and have seen one or two every november. and I dont the law in your state,but in fla albinos and leucistics and not covered. fl. pinesnakes are at all the shows but only in various phases. jb

...but how do you know it wasn't a pine snake?
Also, Florida law has nothing to do with it. It's a Federally protected species and as such can not be touched.

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Hey - I'm not gonna bash you or call you names, you just posted a message that gets folks in this forum worked up... I envy you in a way.... you said in this area indigos "are as common as racers," if this is true of course, I would love to explore and photograph it... especially if a albino or two is cruising around...
I spend as much time as I can in the field in Central Florida quail hunting and looking to photograph wild indigos and other cool critters in the wild. I work hard and usually come up empty handed (I DO NOT COLLECT ANY CRITTER, BTW).
Two and a half years have only turned up ONE indigo that I was able to photograph. Other sightings have been shed skins and a glimpse of a thick black tail disappearing down a gopher tortoise hole...
Some of my herpin buddies have told me that irrigation canals around sugar cane fields near Belle Glade & Pahokee are great places to observe wild indigos... never made it to those spots though.... I'd love to someday.
Anyway, I have family in and around the Tampa area, I would love to get together with you and do some herpin... maybe you could email me and we could get together. Just a thought.

Take care and thanks for reading,

JUSTIN

Here is the only wild indigo I've ever had the pleasure of photographing. All black phase...

I hunt the cane feilds in clewiston and bell glade and south bay and only have seen maybe 1 or 2 in 10 years so their there but the spot I seen the albino is very secluded and untouched (no pigs no game hunting there are never footprints in the sand and the sign on the fence says no tresspassing ,except on foot and without wepons dogs or traps. I you want to see indigos I;ll be happy to go or even give you coordinetes to the spot. e-mail me back and i'll send you my # JB

Could it have been a pine snake?

My hunch is that it would have a pattern like a juvinal. Black rat snakes have pattern as Amel. No pigment pattern stays. Pine snake should have a pine snake pattern Indigo ?

Joe had credibility with me. He has been in the herp game a long time, and knows FL very well. I honestly doubt he would be screwing around as the man knows his snakes.

Not sure how the laws go, but I believe NJ exempts amel specimens of threatened spp.
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Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

I know crimsonking as well and he(mark) can tell you too I would not make something like this up and if ya all have to see it to belive it who knows maybe you'll see it one day soon. JB

This does indeed sound like a joke; no name, no pic, not very credible sounding...please forgive me for being condensending of your post. We'd love to see pics of this particular snake. Even if it was an albino, you would be in deep doo doo if you were to try to collect it. Plus, I don't think there would be a market for albino indigos...at least from purests like many on this forum. Just my .02.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Hey all, I have an important question regarding the indigo bloodline, to alter or not, you see some of you have been waiting for this post for a long time. and I can assure you all this is no joke! I used to pay the state of fl for a permit to collect and sell reptiles, but am too busy to collect anymore and dont need the pennies it brought me in either, but I still love to hunt just for fun... anyway here it is! I know of a spot where indigos are as common as racers and gopher turtle holes are also very abundant, and yesterday I seen from 15 feet away a albino indigo about 5 foot long going into a hole and waited a half an hour for it to come back out but it must have been startled by me, anyway do ya all think I should persue this falty gene for the bloodline or as my logic has told me all my life "leave it in the woods"? whats your call?......joe b.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

rob, what makes you think there wouldn't be a market for albino indigos if they were available???

I should rephrase my original post. YES, there would be a market for albino indigos only because our hobby has gotten so screwed up that if there is money to be made, folks will breed ANYTHING even if to the detriment of the species. So, yes, there would be a market, and NO, this shouldn't happen. Just my piddly .02.

>>rob, what makes you think there wouldn't be a market for albino indigos if they were available???
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Of course there would be a market for amel indigos. but what i think rob was remarking on was that it would be a different market. probably very lucrative, but a different group of people with different motivations. this harkens back to an earlier conversation on this forum regarding indigo pricing and the shocking escalation of some ball python morph prices.

so what are "they" going to call the future amel indigos?

indi-gone? indi-snow? snow-mo-indigo?

matt

Would the Indigo crowd be breeding them if they were only worth $15 each. Case in point, large coachwhaps come in jet black, shocking pink and every other color imaginable. I have been breeding them for ten years and they are one of the most inteligent snakes I know of granuler eggs too. They will bite though kinda like yellowtail.

if naturally occuring albino indigos were actually discovered & then bred successfully in captivity, this would be somehow detrimental to the species? i'm sorry but your logic here escapes me. nature is what nature is despite the fact it might not fit your mind's eye of what an indigo 'should' look like. if they're out there naturally [and it's entirely possible] then what's the problem? wild albinos of just about every snake out there have been discovered at one time or another, my question is why would indigos be somehow exempt?

Sure, albinism is a natural phenomena; no need for disagreement here. My fear is the same fear that is now happening to MANY captive populations of species of herps....try to find a pure bloodline of Okeetee Corn Snake. We've diluted this species with so many "natural" (but really artificial) morphs that it has degraded captive populations. Indigos are in a far more precarious situation. With so few genetically diverse bloodlines to start with, introducing an albino strain into an already genetically imperiled captive population could spark the demise of this species (from a captive population standpoint). So, I have a problem with having albino indigos in captivity where they are commercially profited from and subsequently, dilutes the captive gene pool....that's really scary.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>if naturally occuring albino indigos were actually discovered & then bred successfully in captivity, this would be somehow detrimental to the species? i'm sorry but your logic here escapes me. nature is what nature is despite the fact it might not fit your mind's eye of what an indigo 'should' look like. if they're out there naturally [and it's entirely possible] then what's the problem? wild albinos of just about every snake out there have been discovered at one time or another, my question is why would indigos be somehow exempt?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

You can still find naturally occuring Okeetee corns in Okeetee.
Captive snakes are "pets".
Initially, having the "new" albino indigo would strengthen all of your inbred, captive indigo populations with some new genetics.
That would be a good thing. There needs to be a program through which new blood, from the wild, can be infused into breeding programs. The current laws make this difficult & go against scientific logic. But then again, these snakes, for the most part, are just pets, & as stated previously, the main threat to indigos is land development.
Cheers,
Max
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"I may be crazy, but I can rationalize just about anything."

I agree that there needs to be some way of introducing new bloodlines into the captive gene pool.
However, I disagree with your assertion that the albino gene would help to strengthen the captive gene pool.
Also, the "you can still find true okeetee's in the wild" doesn't relate well to the indigo since corns are so much more plentiful.

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

No the albino gene, itself, wouldn't "help" out the captive population. It is a defective gene, but the new genetics associated with it would be a boost to the current gene pool.
I didn't bring up the Okeetee discussion - I was just going with it to make a point.

Max
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"I may be crazy, but I can rationalize just about anything."

Some of my comments were said in jest. Sure, you can find naturally occurring Okeetees, not many though. Sure, you can find captive bred Okeetees, not many though. Sure, a naturally occurring albino indigo would bring new genetics but not the kind that we would want. Yes, these are PET indigos who will never be released, HOWEVER, you just never know. There could come a day when all we have are our "pets" who may be responsible for saving this species; sounds crazy but not outside the realm of possibility. I do agree in that we need to have a better idea of what exactly we have with our current captive population of couperi; that is difficult and may require extensive DNA testing and other expensive research (but well worth the money spent). I don't know if I would go so far as to say that all indigos are inbred and to what extent population densities in the wild in a given geographic population mirror a properly managed captive breeding program based on what we currently have.

>>You can still find naturally occuring Okeetee corns in Okeetee.
>>Captive snakes are "pets".
>>Initially, having the "new" albino indigo would strengthen all of your inbred, captive indigo populations with some new genetics.
>>That would be a good thing. There needs to be a program through which new blood, from the wild, can be infused into breeding programs. The current laws make this difficult & go against scientific logic. But then again, these snakes, for the most part, are just pets, & as stated previously, the main threat to indigos is land development.
>>Cheers,
>>Max
>>-----
>>"I may be crazy, but I can rationalize just about anything."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Since I’ve been so good at butting in lately thought I would impart some of my wisdom to the pool of wisdom at hand. So what if it is albino or whatever as long as the gene is kept recessive. Maybe by introducing an albino gene into the pool we can use it as a warning flag that we need to find new blood when one pops up. How about red chin or all black. There seems to be everyone and their mother chomping at the bit for the reddest, blackest, yellowiest including myself to be perfectly honest. So lets not pretend that in the next year or so when an albino rears its ugly head we will not all be druling.

You won't see any drool coming from me....although interesting to look at (I've seen one) they pale to the incredible beauty of a jet black indigo. Once the gene is in the "blood" so to speak, it can rear up at any time. Don't let a recessive trait fool you. I don't know whose "chomping at the bit" for the reddest, yellowiest (have NO idea how that relates to eastern indigos), etc" but I do know that genetic diversity is far more important that inbreeding for certain traits as it relates to this species.

>>Since I’ve been so good at butting in lately thought I would impart some of my wisdom to the pool of wisdom at hand. So what if it is albino or whatever as long as the gene is kept recessive. Maybe by introducing an albino gene into the pool we can use it as a warning flag that we need to find new blood when one pops up. How about red chin or all black. There seems to be everyone and their mother chomping at the bit for the reddest, blackest, yellowiest including myself to be perfectly honest. So lets not pretend that in the next year or so when an albino rears its ugly head we will not all be druling.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob, maby you are the last of the Mohekins!

INTERESTING POST INDEED:

An Albino Eastern Indigo?

Interesting topic for a post. Here is MY **TWO CENTS** worth on the subject Please read, if nothing else other than to get a good chuckle in your day:

I cannot honestly tell you that at one time, as a snake breeder, I didnt hope, wish and pray that I popped out an Albino Eastern Indigo.

BECAUSE I HAVE. Yes I Have...

At one point in this hobby, I was so focused on making money and getting my name known, that I would have begged God himself to bless me with the "next" NEW MORPH of Drymarchon.....or anything else for that matter.Yes, this is the pathetic truth.

I think the motivation was twofold: a) To create revenue, which allowed me to buy even MORE snakes, and b) The fame that comes with having something that no one else does. Bragging rights if you will..............

This is true, and pathetic in its own right. Allthough I have some loose ends to tie up and DEBTS to pay,I am truly glad that as a BREEDER of Couperi that I have evolved from my former way of thinking. Who I am and what the snakes MAKE me is really of little consequence. In snake circles I may be "Fred Albury...breeder of Indigos, but in real life my existence barely merits a ripple in the pond of life. And, in reality, the money ISNT that good, despite rumors otherwise by relatively new breeders. Everyone always wants you to think that there is money to be made in breeding whatever THEY are trying to sell you......thats marketing.

If an ALBINO or AMELANISTIC Eastern Indigo were to enter the hobby at this time,my wish is that it be held in a Zoo and not reproduced...EVER. Simply because the GENE POOL of CAPTIVE EASTERN INDIGOS is very limited and has not been properly researched and DNA studies done on ALL major captive populations to afford the luxury of INBREEDING on the level that occurs when you try and reproduce a trait that is RECESSIVE. More harm can come from this than good.

NOW......people will be VERY enthusiastic about this albino being produced, and even want BADLY to produce even more. Why? Because the public is inherently hungry for something that is "NEW".This hunger for new things drives people to cross diffrent types of snakes......all in the name of producing Something...ANYTHING..NEW."crowd".

Only in this case..the "CROWD" isn't very big at all, and that is part of the problem. Limited Gene Pool....Inbreeding...and HABITAT Degredation almost insures that this snake wont be around in the future. There are those that try and breed Drys as a commodity, trying to crank out the highest amount of sheer numbers and sell the most possible. Breeders select to breed RED FACED Couperi because they are considered by some to be more desirable and often command a higher price. I produced red faced Couperi, but did so by breeding UNRELATED red faced males with unrelated all black females, and OCCASIONALLY popped out a red faced baby.Luck of the draw. Just as happy with Black babies. Big ones preferably(I like big healthy neonates)

So...in conclusion, I beleive that people will do whatever they wish with the snakes they have in their care. I cant police them and dont wish to dictate what someone else should do with their snakes, even if I think it is assinine in nature. So...if an albino Eastern is produced, or a leucistic...or a pie bald....NO ONE will truly have control over what happens with that snake unless they purchase it. The SHAME of reproducing it will not outweigh the POTENTIAL to make money off of it and fame off of it. I can only wish that I produce it,so that I can either FREEZE it off....or KEEP it for life and not breed it.

But then.....no guarantees that Ill be the one to produce it, is there?

Solution: Drymarchon Breeders work on reprodcing more natural occuring colors and focus on locality and TRY and breed unrelated Couperi together and work in conjunction with people to TRY and maintain the natural habitat of the snakes.

Futile? Perhaps.....but the other choice is to just pimp the snakes out and breed for color and oddity.

Something that has been done with pythons,boas, pituophis, Colubrids, and a wide variety of lizards and tortoises and turtles.

Lets take the path least traveled...

Sincerely,

Fredrick Albury
Aztec Reptiles

Some of my comments are made tongue in cheek too...
It will be a sad day when we have to rely on our captive bred specimens, but already there are some animals who are more common in captivity than in their native habitats (& it's not getting any better). Black pines are just one example I can think of that are fairly closely related to the indigos status.
I think the indigos, fortunately, still have a ways to go before they reach that level.
I'm a bit surprised that AZA & SSP haven't started a studbook registry for indigos - My guess is that they don't consider them endangered enough, & also that none of them have had any success in breeding them.
This would be a good opportunity for the private sector to step up & start a registry of its own.
The good thing, from what I've been told, is that you can take an inbred snake of multiple generations, outcross it once & you're essentially starting all over again.
Max
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"I may be crazy, but I can rationalize just about anything."

Assuming their is an amel indigo out there...

I would not advocate any private individual collecting this specimen for many reasons, not the least of which is the questionable legality. While state laws may permit mutant specimens, couperi are federally protected.

However, I would be very much interested in seeing what such a snake would look like. As a curiosity, nothing more.

I am firmly in the camp of keeping indigos "pure" and representing their wild form. On the other hand, I don't think that doing so will ultimately do anything to preserve the species, since habitat loss continues unabated.

I will cite white tigers as an example of what happens to the interests of captive breeding when money becomes an issue, even (especially) among the zoological community. There are more freaking white tigers now in captivity than ever existed in the wild. And every one of them is taking up resources that could be better used elsewhere.

Yet the zoos scoff at private breeders...

Sigh.

Dudes,

I saw an indigo with wings, when i got near it, it flew away.bla bla bla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you would get wing whipped if you got too close. Winged indigos are problem breeders and have weak genetics. They are not federaly protected and are a challenge to hunt. They drop to the ground and crawl into holes when threatened. They taste like chicken cooters.