Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a serious question I have, I’m pretty sure I have the easy answer (I’ll save it for later), but I want to hear others opinions. I think there are some “unspoken” opinions about “desirable” traits, so let’s hear them. This is not blatant self-promotion either; I have sold most of the Thayeri pictured already anyway. I had to start somewhere so I am starting with my own (fuzzy) pics, I hope others will share there’s too (many of you have better examples than I do or other examples that I can not contrast well). I know everyone has better pictures, but I really want to know; what is the perfect Thayeri?

The obvious first question is Milksnake Phase (MSP) or Leonis?

n/p

Band color, Brick Red, Orange, another color?

Almost solid, slight splits, split, almost hollow

Thin Bands, 50/50 bands, diamond shaped bands, etc.

Band Spacing; low band count or high band count?

There are more, like Heavy Black vs. low Black, plus a few I am sure I am missing.

Almost a 50/50 Milksnake phase from 2002. I think when you get the higher band count and narrow bands on a Milksnake phase it almost has a mountain king look to it. Heavy black on the pattern too. I thought I had lost this picture (and many others)when my hard drive failed this summer. Found it on a CD that I was trying to figure out what was on.

Rick, every one of your babies is a 10. Great variety. Thanks for showing them. Very informative. Mike Bod.

I love the white one Rick. Here is mine that I think looks exactly like it.
Ken

I like yellow the best, I like yellow on msp or on leonis. I guess orange would be my next favorite. I also like both thin bands and thick ones, I always like the ones with the least black best. My favorite msp is the orange cheeked male the Bodners have, my favorite head pattern is the shark tooth male Chris has.
My favorite yellow is the one you sold me.

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Michelle

n/p

Thanks for the compliment, Rick. I sure hope their offspring come out just as nice.
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Michelle

ME TOO Michelle!!!!!......Me too! I too hope they produce some awesome offspring next year.......Don't forget your buddy John....LOL!!
John Lassiter

I could never forget you John.......LOL.......BTW the three you just posted are beautiful, I am really partial to #1 though, she is perfect. Keep your fingers crossed on the no-black project hopefully we will have plenty of babies.
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Michelle

Rick:

Those are some very nice looking animals. You've got a nice range of variation, both in MSP and leonis phase. I'm guessing that my sentiment would be shared by many (but won't presume to speak for them), namely that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. And, although a single snake may be stunning, the major attraction to this species is the incredible variety of colors and patterns. There are so many variations on a theme--we tend to think of leonis-types as being especially diverse, but your MSP group displays lots of variety as well (please keep me in mind next year!). So, sorry to give you a weenie-type response, but I truly like them all, including some versions not shown in your pics. Thanks for posting those!

Cheers,

Bob

That’s what I come up with too after some thought, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I would be hard pressed to pick a perfect one too. However, there are “nuances” in a variety of features that I would like to hear about from others. We all seem to appreciate certain features more than other. Some of the people almost have a code amongst themselves. Looking for input.

Thanks for the complement by the way, not needed but thanks. You (as well as others) have some great examples of Thayeri with bold black outlined patterns (I don’t really). I’d like to hear more what people think of pattern features and see some more pics too!

Rick I love what you have done with this post, the way you put it all together is fantastic. Great job.
I am fond of msp but I will have to say I have never found one that I don't like. Especially the yellow male I got from you he is just perfect.

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Michelle

Glad you liked it, wish I had better pictures to work with. I had hope other people will jump in and share some of their examples too (and better pictures). How's the new girl doing?

I really like the ones that look like the second photo in this post of yours. I remember asking Vichris about his 508M and 501F animals from this year. I like the tan colored body and red saddles with moderate black borders. I wouldn't presume to define any of them as "perfect," but my preference runs in that direction.

I looked at some at a reptile show in my area back in November, and they weren't nearly as pretty as many of the ones that I see on this forum. While there may be no single "perfect" look, some animals are of higher beauty than others. If I can make space in my snake room for another cage, I'll be getting one someday.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Thank you for posting them, all 3 are doing great. The new little female ate a pink for me this weekend. I think she would eat every time I walk by, she is really active. I will have to get a picture of the other female for you, she is getting more and more orange. thanks for such a beautiful trio.
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Michelle

overnight. She went almost four months with no interest in eating and now would never think of refusing a meal. Glad you like her!

>>Thank you for posting them, all 3 are doing great. The new little female ate a pink for me this weekend. I think she would eat every time I walk by, she is really active. I will have to get a picture of the other female for you, she is getting more and more orange. thanks for such a beautiful trio.
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>>Michelle

I, for some reason, love a colorful thin banded leonis phase. I have a peach, and a green one, and they're two of my favorite snakes. I also have a melanistic male that is absolutely gorgeous. I have a het female so hopefully I'll produce some next year.
Ken

The best Thayeri would be a gravid female in my collection, any phase! Then I get the whole candy store, lol! Looking for my next thayeri, hopefully, next year. Really dig on those high yellows though! Here's Uno my one and only buckskin.
Todd Hughes

Well Rick I'll give you my two cents.

Perfect for me is a brightly colored leonis with either a yellow, peach, or lava orange ground color and thin saddles with dark bold outlines and a splash of color in the middle....kind of like a drop of bleach. I think this makes for a very eye catching snake.

MSP don't really do much for me but the higher band count resulting in a mountain king look is pretty cool. I guess the MSP doesn't work for me because I got bored with other milks in my collection long ago. That said, I've seen some very pretty MSP thayeri in other's collections.

Head patterns are a bonus.

In the end though, the perfect thayeri is one that is a hardy eater, colorful, and throws good looking babies.

Russ

But if we're talking perfect, it has to have a cool head pattern too. I do admire some of the MSP too though. This one is the best MSP I have produced (IMHO), the head spot is awesome.

I'm sure if you produced nothing but hot colored Leonis thayeri, you would get bored with them just as you did with your Milksnakes too. I think one of the best things about Thayeri is the variability, keep them mixed up.

I think the 'perfect' thayeri is an adult female that is a very prolific breeder. One that produces a real Variable clutch of healthy / feeding babies........
John Lassiter

Is a really nice fertile male that keeps all of those females knocked up, LOL.

I guess my definition of a perfect thayeri is a bit different then say Russ's. I like those molten colored MSP's with the amazing head patterns. Chris Bodner has that one orange cheek male and David Weymouth produced a few back in 2003 that still make me do a double take.

Pics compliments of David Weymouth

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

The ones you posted here are stunning, I have to say they are my favorite too. I like leonis and own both, but msp always catch my eye first.
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Michelle

Michelle,

You should see Mike and Chris Bodners orange cheek male as a hatchling. I hope one of them post some pics of that snake. He's stunning as an adult but unreal as a hatchling.

Here's another beauty that David Weymouth produced. I often wonder what happened to this snake. This one is a brother of sharktooth.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

He is beautiful, I have seen the Bodners orange cheek male, I don't think you can get any better than him, I have never seen another even close to that red. I am getting a female msp off of him after the weather lets up a little and I can't wait.
I really like the one in the photo and your "shark tooth" male, they are both truly beautiful. I love the way "shark tooth" has the vibrant red head. I can't wait to see babies off of him. Will he be ready this year or next?
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Michelle

He (hopefully) will be ready to breed in the spring. He and most of my snakes are "chillin out" now. Thanks for the compliments Michelle
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Chris, you are welcome. I can't wait to see what his babies are going to look like. Which female or females are you going to pair him with?
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Michelle

If that is "Shark tooth". That last one looks almost on the verge of being a leonis phase. All are great!

Ya... that was him (sharktooth) as a hatchling. Thanks Rick, you really have produced some killer thayeri too. I really really do like the leonis thayeri too. I must, I have more of them than MSP's but there is something unique about thayeri MSP's that really set them apart from most "other" milksnakes.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

i personaly like the leonis phase more than the msp, but i also really like the msp too, i think also that the beauty is in the eye of the beholder

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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 CORNS SNAKES (SNOW/STRIPEDSUNGLOW/WHITE TAIL CANDYCANE)
0.1 BRAZILLIAN RAINBOW BOA
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG

One that is clean, healthy, feeding, and in my collection.

I'm partial to high color leonis and msp, but I do like the look of some of the more wild-type animals. This sub-specie in my opinion are the most amazing of any of the kingsnakes. Size, calm disposition, and varibility, they have it all!

Jason

(last picture is courtesy of Tim Gebhard)

I have enjoyed everyone’s input though. And the pictures are fantastic, way mo’e betta than mine; keep them coming! I know we all have specific features that we lean towards, really break down the fine points (some of you have). I assumed (bad thing to do) that we all appreciate a happy, healthy, eatin’ & breedin’ machine. There are details that make one more desirable over another though (and yes, it could be 180 out from one of us to the next).

Here’s my list.

1. Leonis phase

2. Color, bright, with a fluorescents, clean (free of gray cross hatching on sides), and I lean towards a light to mid tone orange.

3. Head pattern, got to have a bold, well defined, and unusual, head spot – one nice spot is better than three dots.

4. Saddle color, brick red or deeeep orange.

5. Split bands or Solid - Split, very split and noticeable (I really like the split band Tim posted below this thread).

5. Band shape, thin

6. High or low band count, I am still on the fence, I have seen examples of both that I really like.

7. Black, thin, very thin, just barely defining the saddle.

8. The aberrant pattern ones really appeal to me too

Now, having said all that, I too appreciate the awesome variety we can produce with thayeri and many spectacular animals that do not fit MY definition of “perfect”. Finding one that combines everything is nearly impossible; it is a piece game when putting pairs together.

I have run out of fuzzy pics to post that I have not already used a few times. Here's another pic of one of last years females, can't remember who bought her and I lost all my contact info on my computer this summer. Anyone want to fess up?

Sorry to both of you. You both have unbelievable collections.
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>>5. Split bands or Solid - Split, very split and noticeable (I really like the split band Tim posted below this thread).
>>

...why they call them variable kings anyway??

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

now I understand why they are called Variable Kings (LOL). Isn’t that really the best part? You just never know what to expect.

Here are some “clutch mates”

>>now I understand why they are called Variable Kings (LOL). Isn’t that really the best part? You just never know what to expect.
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>>Here are some “clutch mates”
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and please ignore that repeat post below, my computer attacked me.

Rick, they are all beautiful, but that msp in the middle is off the charts. Was it male or female? You must have held that one back.

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Michelle

I think bright and hi contrast is pretty obvious but the "perfect pair" would be one that throws variable clutches.