Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I was just looking around online at random photos of Burmese pythons and it became apparent after not too much searching that there are a lot of photos of Burm's in some kind of scene with crocs/alligators in Florida.

And anyone who frequents this forum has no doubtedly read about the current problem with Burm's in the Everglades.

The one thing that seems curious to me is how Burm's have managed to get a foothold there. Granted, it is a hospitable environment for them, but in order to establish a functional reproductive there generally first has to be a minimum critical population concentration. The Everglades is a big place, so I imagine that it would take a large number of individuals to get the process started.

From what I've read this problem of people releasing unwanted Burm's into the wild has been going on for about twenty years now. I'm not so sure that alone can account for the problem at hand. So I've started to suspect something else - breeders.

Here's what I'm thinking: we all know that when a python lays eggs, there are a lot of them. There also seems to be a lot of people breeding Burmese pythons (hence, the low cost for a Burm (due to market saturation), and the high availability of 'morphs'). I can't help but wonder, if there are so many Burmese pythons being hatched every year - where are they all going??

Is there that big of a demand for them, so much so that all the hatchlings are bought/adopted by loving, caring, capable owners? Why do I doubt that? Could it be that some breeders take all of their 'excess "stock"' and "get rid of it"? I hate to think that maybe some of these breeders just kill of whatever isn't 'marketable', or simply whatever didn't sell. I also hate to think that they may instead just dump the 'overstock' animals - for example, in the Everglades.

That alone could serve as a great boom in helping an invasive species to establish a breeding wild population.

I apologize as I have no suggestions, solutions, or ideas to offer at the moment for dealing with the situation. But this does trouble me, as I can expect the general public will grow less and less 'tolerant' of us Burm owners - which can only spell "legislation" against owning Burm's (and probably against owning any herps...).

It is for that reason that I, a responsible owner, am growing very anxious about dealing with anyone who threatens to jeapordize our right to keep a happy, healthy, and safe Burmese python as a pet.

Thanks for reading,
- Mark
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My personal website: www.antegy.com
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My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries

- 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
- 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
- 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
- 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
- 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
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My photography on photo.net
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My photography on modelmayhem.com
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Me on myspace.com

This is a very complex problem with very few good answers. All things being equal between releasing baby burms into places like the everglades and putting them down, I would opt for putting them down in a heartbeat. There is a market for baby burms for king cobra keepers; not a huge market, but it does exist (along with other hard to keep snake-eating herps). But you are absolutely right, there are not enough good homes for the amount of burms available on the market; it is an absolute joke and the breeders should be held responsible and accountable (but that would be tough to do). Owners, too, share the burden of this problem as ignorance is no excuse when purchasing a new pet; that is just as bad as the unscrupulous breeders (and before the breeders send me hate mail, I am not talking about all breeders, just a handful). My gut feeling is that Florida will, in the near future, ban the keeping of species such as burms, rocks, anacondas and any other potentially invasive species that could threaten this delicate ecosystem; and, as much as I hate to say it, would support such actions if we ("we" being the entire herp industry ranging from hobbyists to professionals) don't get our act together. So, as you can see, I don't have the answers but hopefully, the herp community will get on the same page and figure it out.

>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I was just looking around online at random photos of Burmese pythons and it became apparent after not too much searching that there are a lot of photos of Burm's in some kind of scene with crocs/alligators in Florida.
>>
>>And anyone who frequents this forum has no doubtedly read about the current problem with Burm's in the Everglades.
>>
>>The one thing that seems curious to me is how Burm's have managed to get a foothold there. Granted, it is a hospitable environment for them, but in order to establish a functional reproductive there generally first has to be a minimum critical population concentration. The Everglades is a big place, so I imagine that it would take a large number of individuals to get the process started.
>>
>>From what I've read this problem of people releasing unwanted Burm's into the wild has been going on for about twenty years now. I'm not so sure that alone can account for the problem at hand. So I've started to suspect something else - breeders.
>>
>>Here's what I'm thinking: we all know that when a python lays eggs, there are a lot of them. There also seems to be a lot of people breeding Burmese pythons (hence, the low cost for a Burm (due to market saturation), and the high availability of 'morphs'). I can't help but wonder, if there are so many Burmese pythons being hatched every year - where are they all going??
>>
>>Is there that big of a demand for them, so much so that all the hatchlings are bought/adopted by loving, caring, capable owners? Why do I doubt that? Could it be that some breeders take all of their 'excess "stock"' and "get rid of it"? I hate to think that maybe some of these breeders just kill of whatever isn't 'marketable', or simply whatever didn't sell. I also hate to think that they may instead just dump the 'overstock' animals - for example, in the Everglades.
>>
>>That alone could serve as a great boom in helping an invasive species to establish a breeding wild population.
>>
>>I apologize as I have no suggestions, solutions, or ideas to offer at the moment for dealing with the situation. But this does trouble me, as I can expect the general public will grow less and less 'tolerant' of us Burm owners - which can only spell "legislation" against owning Burm's (and probably against owning any herps...).
>>
>>It is for that reason that I, a responsible owner, am growing very anxious about dealing with anyone who threatens to jeapordize our right to keep a happy, healthy, and safe Burmese python as a pet.
>>
>>Thanks for reading,
>>- Mark
>>.
>>
>>-----
>>.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My personal website: www.antegy.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries
>>
>> - 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
>> - 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on photo.net
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on modelmayhem.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>Me on myspace.com
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

As much as I would hope that it wouldn't be necessary, it seems that it is going to come down to legislation to get the problem in check. If such legislation could be written in a fair and reasonable manner I would definitely support it 100%.

What do you think are the chances it will be written in a fair and reasonable way? I say slim, at best.

>>This is a very complex problem with very few good answers. All things being equal between releasing baby burms into places like the everglades and putting them down, I would opt for putting them down in a heartbeat. There is a market for baby burms for king cobra keepers; not a huge market, but it does exist (along with other hard to keep snake-eating herps). But you are absolutely right, there are not enough good homes for the amount of burms available on the market; it is an absolute joke and the breeders should be held responsible and accountable (but that would be tough to do). Owners, too, share the burden of this problem as ignorance is no excuse when purchasing a new pet; that is just as bad as the unscrupulous breeders (and before the breeders send me hate mail, I am not talking about all breeders, just a handful). My gut feeling is that Florida will, in the near future, ban the keeping of species such as burms, rocks, anacondas and any other potentially invasive species that could threaten this delicate ecosystem; and, as much as I hate to say it, would support such actions if we ("we" being the entire herp industry ranging from hobbyists to professionals) don't get our act together. So, as you can see, I don't have the answers but hopefully, the herp community will get on the same page and figure it out.
>>
>>
>>>>Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>>I was just looking around online at random photos of Burmese pythons and it became apparent after not too much searching that there are a lot of photos of Burm's in some kind of scene with crocs/alligators in Florida.
>>>>
>>>>And anyone who frequents this forum has no doubtedly read about the current problem with Burm's in the Everglades.
>>>>
>>>>The one thing that seems curious to me is how Burm's have managed to get a foothold there. Granted, it is a hospitable environment for them, but in order to establish a functional reproductive there generally first has to be a minimum critical population concentration. The Everglades is a big place, so I imagine that it would take a large number of individuals to get the process started.
>>>>
>>>>From what I've read this problem of people releasing unwanted Burm's into the wild has been going on for about twenty years now. I'm not so sure that alone can account for the problem at hand. So I've started to suspect something else - breeders.
>>>>
>>>>Here's what I'm thinking: we all know that when a python lays eggs, there are a lot of them. There also seems to be a lot of people breeding Burmese pythons (hence, the low cost for a Burm (due to market saturation), and the high availability of 'morphs'). I can't help but wonder, if there are so many Burmese pythons being hatched every year - where are they all going??
>>>>
>>>>Is there that big of a demand for them, so much so that all the hatchlings are bought/adopted by loving, caring, capable owners? Why do I doubt that? Could it be that some breeders take all of their 'excess "stock"' and "get rid of it"? I hate to think that maybe some of these breeders just kill of whatever isn't 'marketable', or simply whatever didn't sell. I also hate to think that they may instead just dump the 'overstock' animals - for example, in the Everglades.
>>>>
>>>>That alone could serve as a great boom in helping an invasive species to establish a breeding wild population.
>>>>
>>>>I apologize as I have no suggestions, solutions, or ideas to offer at the moment for dealing with the situation. But this does trouble me, as I can expect the general public will grow less and less 'tolerant' of us Burm owners - which can only spell "legislation" against owning Burm's (and probably against owning any herps...).
>>>>
>>>>It is for that reason that I, a responsible owner, am growing very anxious about dealing with anyone who threatens to jeapordize our right to keep a happy, healthy, and safe Burmese python as a pet.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for reading,
>>>>- Mark
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>.
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>My personal website: www.antegy.com
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries
>>>>
>>>> - 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
>>>> - 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
>>>> - 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
>>>> - 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
>>>> - 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>My photography on photo.net
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>My photography on modelmayhem.com
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Me on myspace.com
>>-----
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, IL

Mornin' Mark,

The situation in Florida has been, as you said, going on for twenty odd years. I expect it's a combination of things that has gotten it to the point it is now. Certainly people that decide that their 'pet' has grown to large to comfortably take care of. Because, as we all know, they just 'too cute' when they're babys, and buyers don't consider the great size they will reach as adults. Then there is the breeder/hobbiest who, again as you say, winds up with many unsold babys and no place to keep them. They get turned loose in the swamps and thrive. If enough are let go in a given area there is certainly a chance that they will come together and breed. And if it goes on in different areas of the state there will be pockets of them throughout the everglades. Also, I can't help but wonder how many people keep them outside and they have gotten loose during things like the hurricanes which have been so rabid in the past few years. Just my take on the matter. Oh, and you're right, this can only hurt the hobby.

Quig

Interesting idea about the breeders releasing overstock. I don't know if something of that nature would have been necessary though, I was watching a special on an island totally overrun by boas, and the entire population could be traced back to six specimens brought to it on a movie shoot. I believe it may have been off of Mexico. Probably a smallish Island, but still.
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0.0.1 Snow Corn
0.0.1 Oketee
1.0 Ghosts
0.0.1 Ball Python
1.0 Albino Burmese Python

Very interesting, there is an island in the N Pacific that has
the exact same problem only worse.

They aren't boas, but snakes were brought in probably mixed with
cargo, and they ate all the native birds. They don't have any
natural predators there.

I think it was Guam, and a brown tree snake??? It's been a long time since I've seen anything about that so I'm probabnly wrong on the snake, but i'm sure it was Guam.

Quig

As far as Guam goes they do have a problem with brown tree snakes. Think they came in on military cargo planes. Not the place I was referring to, but same situation.
-----
0.0.1 Snow Corn
0.0.1 Oketee
1.0 Ghosts
0.0.1 Ball Python
1.0 Albino Burmese Python

The exact time of arrival and method or arrival of the Brown Tree Snake (Boiga irregularis) is not known for a fact but is suspected as coming along as a passive stowaway with military cargo anytime from 1947 or afterwards. Distribution by ship is the most reasonable route of delivery to Guam. Boiga irregularis has been found from time to time stowing away from Guam to Hawaii by air and its spread to other South Pacific Islands in the area is suspected from Guam. This species has a couple of predators in Guam. Feral pigs will eat B. irregularis, but B. irregularis is usually in the trees or off the ground. The Mangrove Monitor (Varanus indicus) is the best predator of B. irregularis, but their young are taken by B. irregularis. I spent a couple of years ago and was close to the research done on Boiga irregularis.

How does this relate to Burmese Pythons? Burmese pythons could easily take over an environment like the Everglades and eradicate many native species and definitely upset the ecological balance. They breed in large numbers and are not vulnerable for very long with their rapid first year growth. I do not see them creating the same damage as B. irregularis caused in Guam, but then again Guam is an island.

Cheers,

Michael

>>As far as Guam goes they do have a problem with brown tree snakes. Think they came in on military cargo planes. Not the place I was referring to, but same situation.
>>-----
>>0.0.1 Snow Corn
>>0.0.1 Oketee
>>1.0 Ghosts
>>0.0.1 Ball Python
>>1.0 Albino Burmese Python

I recently read an article about (I think it was Guam) parachuting mice stuffed full of ibuprofin from a local Air Force Base. I didn't realize that ibuprofin would kill a snake. I think it is an exreme measure but at the same time it shows that some people have way too much time on their hands and way too much access to military hardware.
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

I live in Miami, and I used to spend most of my time as a
teenager out in the unincorporated areas around the Everglades.

There used to be a number of roadside zoos out there back then.
There's only a few now. I've read that hurricanes have hit them in the past and big adult burms were set loose on the world.

The truth is that there are loads of non-native reptiles loose
out here. I see more exotic lizards every month. They don't get
over 20 feet long though, so it's not quite the news story that
burms are...

So, just when I thought it was bad - its actually worse?

I hadn't considered that there may be other invasive species thriving there as well. What are we (humans) doing?!?!

Is it really so hard to be a conscientious, responsible human being?!?!

That's it - I'm going to get a coffee and be upset about this for a while. Then I'm going to calm down and start devising a plan to take over the world.

(if only it were so easy)
.
-----
.
-------------------------------------------------------------
My personal website: www.antegy.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries

- 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
- 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
- 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
- 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
- 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on photo.net
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on modelmayhem.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Me on myspace.com