Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys. Bad news on my end and I need your help. For the past 5 years I've been doing Box Turtle rescue in my state. Townhouses and crappy cracker-jack box sub-divisions now stand where thousands or acres of woods once existed. A friend of the family is a surveyor and found many of the turtles I've kept literally in front of the bulldozer blade. Sad thing is that for every one he finds alive, he finds several more crushed in the bulldozer track. At one site 8 were dead and another partially crushed. He found 1 on the trash pile so this means 1 in 10 survived in this case.

Unfortunately, this lucky survivor is the cause of death for 5 LTC box turtles. I kept him apart from the others for 2 months and he seemed healthy. He wouldn't eat, but I've seen that with many other turtles in the past. As the days grew shorter and the nights colder, I moved them all inside to a cool basement for hibernation like I have for the past 5 years. I checked on all of them every other day and they seemed fine, until one day I pulled out the newest one. His eyes were full of pus and his nose and mouth were bubbling. He didn't last the night. Now 5 other turtles have perished over the past 4 weeks. Just when I think it's run its course, another one sickens and dies. Heat treatment, vitamin and mineral soaks, and Baytril injections do nothing.

According to the vet, there's no reason these turtles being of healthy body weight should have all failed to respond on Baytril. My last sick turle curiously never got as sick as any of the others and appeared only to have a mild case of the sniffles and mouth rot. I began treatment with dilute hydrogen peroxide and I noticed mites pouring out of his mouth. I had seen a few maybe 1 or 2 at the time at the most on his shell and not really though much of it until then. Could these be the source of the problem rather than a bacteria considering that Baytril didn't work? As of this morning, amother turtle is blowing bubbles but I don't see any mites in this case. What I would like to know is this:

1) Mites in the throat & lungs possible - yay, nay?
2) Treatment options since Ivermectin is deadly to turtles?

Thanks!

Ouch...thats horrible. Nay I have never heard of such a thing before. But then again i am no expert.

That's terrible, I wish things could have turned out for the better.

In hindsight, did you deworm your turtle while in quarantine? There is never a 100% safe time to end quarantine, just a "safer" time, and I think 2 months should have been long enough, obviously it wasn't. Perhaps anorexia or poor appetite might indicate a longer quarantine period in the future. More hindsight might suggest not hibernating animals after adding another for "just in case".

As far as the mites go... are they related to the problem? They likely are although I don't know of what species they may be. If they are the problem (or even if they arn't), there are a whole host of related problems that will complicate things. Bacterial infection is usually involved, as is the immune response by the lungs, which is the mucous. I wonder if pneumonia was implicated.

The other very likely possibility is that as the turtles became super week and approached death, fluid began to leak out of the lungs (not uncommon), and concidently carried out mites that were not really a factor in dying. Viral pneumonia would be rather high on my differential list if this is the case, and it would also explain the large contagious factor here.

Why the baytril never worked:
1)It was too little too late.
2)The pathogen was non-responsive to Baytril. This could include resistent bacteria, parasites, and/or virus'
3)The Baytril was working, but this was a multi-faceted problem.

What I suggest: This may involve seeing your regular herp vet, or asking for a referal, I'll leave that to your discretion.
1)Hospitalization.
2)Parental fluids. A cathetor is also a good idea for safety reasons and for drug administration.
3)Diagnostics. X-rays will hopefully reveal the extent of the problem withen the upper respiratory tract (pneumonia). Ultrasound may be helpfull as well. Bloodwork will let the DVM know the systemic effects of the problem and specify his/her treatment. Culture, sensitivity and lung aspirate cytology. This will specify what is happening in the lungs and what antibiotics any bacteria will be susceptible too. The results will take a few days, so it's benefit will be dependent on whether or not they are able to keep your turtle alive for the time being.

Good luck with your remaining box turtles, I"m afraid you'll need it.

Ian

Everyone here I'm sure is aware that this is a toxic drug in turtles and tortoises.

Your vet will know of alternatives and their dosages, but because it was asked, here are some other drugs:

albendazole, praziquantel, mebendazole, and fipronel.

Thanks Joey! This information has been a great help! Happy Holidays!

I've never heard of mites being a problem likek this before.

As to the Baytril, it is a broad-spectrum antibiotic, but it DOES NOT kill all bacteria. There are also viral, fungal, and yeast infections to consider. The vet should have asked you if you wanted a culture taken to see what the cause was after the first animal died and you noticed another with the same symptoms - culture before the first Baytril dose, if possible. Was a necropsy done on any of the turtles?

Katrina

“ I checked on all of them every other day and they seemed fine, until one day I pulled out the newest one. His eyes were full of pus and his nose and mouth were bubbling. He didn't last the night. Now 5 other turtles have perished over the past 4 weeks. Just when I think it's run its course, another one sickens and dies. Heat treatment, vitamin and mineral soaks, and Baytril injections do nothing. “

“ I began treatment with dilute hydrogen peroxide and I noticed mites pouring out of his mouth. I had seen a few maybe 1 or 2 at the time at the most on his shell and not really though much of it until then.”

You have been given good advice. But the problem being a severe one; may be in need of several options....Some of them as risky as the sickness....with a weakened boxy in the state you described.

There is a mite variety that is found within the upper respiratory tract of reptiles (Ophionyssus natricis); most commonly in snakes. However they will attack any immune compromised reptile.

Besides anemia, secondary bacterial and or fungal infections; these mites themselves are capable of also transmitting bacterial diseases predominantly gram negative organisms. Your vet may want to consider this when culturing and doing a antibiotic sensitivity test.

Olive oil wiped over the entire turtle when mites were first noticed usually drowns the mites before major damage is done; along with complete disinfection of the enclosure. During the treatment offered here; you still need to continually disinfect daily the enclosure and area around it.

You may ask you Rep vet about a lung wash and the bacterial drug Milbemycin oxime.

Also the use of dichlorvos pest strips are safe if properly used.

* Never touch the Vapona strip with your bare hands....Use disposable gloves.*

While this may have some slight toxic effect on all reptiles, it should be temporary; but will kill the mites in your reptile’s lungs. Using one eight of a strip and placing it in a small clean empty butter tub or similar sized container with the lid placed back on ( and taped tight) punch a few quarter inch sized air holes along the side and top. This will allow the no pest strip fumes to come in contact with the boxy yet prevent any contact directly between the reptiles skin and the strip.

Mites being extremely susceptible.....
and exposure of four hours at a time for two weeks is usually adequate. All food and water must be removed while exposure to the no pest strip.

At no time should you leave the(Vapona) no pest strip in the enclosure for 24 hours.
The boxy will still need to be treated with an antibiotic for secondary infection and fungus. In order to raise the boxy’s metabolism to fight these invaders, consider raising the temperature of the enclosure a few degrees above normal. (have an area between 86- 88 degrees) Also consider increasing the amount of ARTIFICIAL ULTRVIOLET light (so the light amount can be controlled) an additional five hours, and keeping his water / soaking area filled with a water soluble antibiotic such as tetracycline....changed daily.

Best of Luck,
Ric

There is no dosing information on vapona strips. This, combined with an already ill turtle, would be enough to recommend against it's use. I don't think the mites are your #1 concern, but part of a bigger problem.

The drugs I've mentioned previously should work on mites, your DVM will discuss this with you. Other home-remedy type mite treatments often ignore the basic husbandry of an animal, or increase the stress factor... again something to avoid in an already ill animal.

Ian

>>There is no dosing information on vapona strips. This, combined with an already ill turtle, would be enough to recommend against it's use. I don't think the mites are your #1 concern, but part of a bigger problem.
>>

Vapona strips are not FDA approved for use with reptiles especially in an indoor setting.. vapona strips are used in outdoor trashcans normally - not in a pet animals cage where the animal cannot escape the fumes. The strips are highly toxic and are known to cause neurological problems in some reptiles (more notably snakes) and have been attributed to some reptile deaths.

If you are going to treat a reptile enclosure it ideally should be done with a product that is FDA approved for use around reptiles and right now there is only one such product that I know of... kinda expensive too. provent-a-mite -- even this stuff can kill reptiles if not followed to the letter on the instructions and I would not even think of using it in the same room where insects, spiders, amphibians or fish are housed. A less toxic reptile mite spray is also available but it's not really as effective for quick erradication like the p-a-m is.
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PHWyvern

Provent A Mite had produced a Powder form years ago....
I was mistaken as to what you were referring to..

I now realize that you were referring to the spray form.

It is another good option. Unfortunately I don't like the product as it's intended for snakes; and is left in the enclosure permanently....It's arachnid poisons build up in the tissues of any reptiles; ( causes bad headaches in people) whereas removal of the limited fumes in a container having a vapona strip prevents build up of fumes and has been endorsed by DVM's. No pest strips have been used in human homes for years; especially summer homes and vacation rentals...still are... But they are to be removed and the rooms aired out before use. I didn't realize that Provent -a mite was FDA approved?
Ric

My mistake.. got my letters mixed up... EPA approved.

On older lables PAM was listed for use only on snakes, more recently though lables are now including for the use around chelonians (I remember getting into an arguement with another person some months ago and the confliction was she had a newer can of pam while I had an older can so it caused some confusion when she kept insisting it was safe for tortoises LOL).

I only use pam for erradication of a current infestation - I do not use it for longterm proventive use when mites are not visible. One treatement on cages and accessories, air out thoroughly then wait two weeks to see if any mites / eggs were missed and if necessary a 2nd treatment applied. I've never had to go beyond a first treatment. Our box/wood turtles get treated when an infestation breaks out among the snakes only because their cage and substrate is ideal for harboring wandering mites that can set the stage for another infestation.

It's been a few years since we have had a mite problem but mainly that's because I've made it quite clear that I'd wring the neck of any coworker that would try to throw a wild snake in with one of our established ones instead of putting it in a temp. holding/quarrantine cage away from all other animals until what ever is to be done with the snake is to be done (rehabbed, euthanized, relocated/released). Most of our mite infestations can be traced to one person, but since she is my boss I can't really smack her upside the head for her stupidity like I can my coworkers.... no amount of animal education gets through to her so I always keep PAM on hand for emergencies. sigh.
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PHWyvern

There are several new products offered just for Reptile Mite problems.

Zoo Med has one out called Mite Off, and there's another one called Reptile Relief. The later impressed me because it doesn't contain any poisons or toxins. However I have not had any experience with either one.

Hopefully the boxie in question has received some help and
is at least stable. With all the symptoms of secondary nfection, fungus and the demise of the rest of his enclosure mates....With Vet help; I was hoping to hear positive news of his condition..
Ric

Posted by: streamwalker at Sat Dec 10 16:33:29 2005  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The boxy in question is in very serious condition. Most of the other boxies exposed to the Mites have died.

I clearly stated the the information offered should be shared with a choosen VET.

It is not a home remedy; but one I have used for over 20 years. It has published papers on it's use and safety.

It is also published in a common Book for Herpetoculturists & Vetrinarians.....By Roger J. Klingenberg D.V.M. and Lowell Ackerman, D.V. M.( Both are world renowned Reptiles Vets) In Ackerman's three volume series for Vets Entitled... The Biology, Husbandry and Health care of REPTILES Ackerman has used the antibiotic strickly for boxies. ...

.I have personally found it to be less stressing to boxies than than more common antiobiotics you mentioned for general use.

Also the Mites in a boxies Lungs are a serious threat and should not be downplayed.

The antibiotic I recommended should take care of the secondary, bacterial, and fungal infections...and possibly Knock out the mites.... but case histories with this aggressive MITE need further attention as they will quickly reinfect their host if not exterminated.

I not saying the post I responded to is the only solution; but one that should be considered before it's too late. I have had too many boxies, for too many years and have worked with several local Vets on Reptile Care for many years (Consult Basis) when all they knew about was cats and dogs.

Now we have some really good reptile vets; but there are plently of knowledgeable people out there who have much more information than many so called rep vets. Don't knock some tried and true Home Remedies that saved many a boxy before you were born.

As previously stated, in this case none of the above are Home Remedies. And I still feel a rep vet should be consulted. I do feel you gave adequate advice; but have just offered another option....before it's too late

"Provent A Mite" is a substrate that causes boxies to get it's fine powder to act as a desiccant and actually clogs a boxies mouth. With a sick compromised boxie it can easily irritate and chole a boxie's lungs.
It is best for snakes and somes large lizards; but only to rid the enclosure of MITES

It good as a proventative as stated on the bag; but not a cure. It will rid the enclosure of mites over a long period of time. In this case we don't have time. I have used this product six years ago; and have abondoned it's use along with many other boxies owners. It will also cause an extreme eye infection in young boxies... the Vapona Strips have been used in garbage cans as well as many others chemicals on the shelf as pharmaceuticals. The method
outlined uses them with a certain procedure....especially where ivermectin crosses the brain barrier in boxies.

In Humans Vioxxx, Celebrex, and Bendectin were all approved drugs of choice. The deaths and harm they proved led to their being disposed of in the gargbage can..and many lawsuits.
Ric