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A very enthusiatic, extremely smart 12 year old kid was asking me a question about the origin of honduran milksnakes, and I told her that it came from the country of Honduras. Then she followed it up with a question as to why honduran milksnakes need to be "brumated". So my answer was by "cooling" them off, some physiological changes will trigger them to breed in spring and summer....I added by telling her that I was probably mimicking their natural habitat. Then she has this puzzled look on her face and asked me how that can be "when the country of Honduras is near the equator...which is generally hot or tropical to say the least"? So, I said: " I will get back to you on that." I was kinda embarrassed not to be able to give her the correct answers which I hate when I see a kid really interested in learning about snakes.

Anyway, I have been breeding hondos for quite a number of years now but really have not researched its specific origin within the country of Honduras. This is what I found:

Although all of Honduras lies within the tropics, the climatic types of each of the three physiographic regions differ. The Caribbean lowlands have a tropical wet climate with consistently high temperatures and humidity, and rainfall fairly evenly distributed throughout the year. The Pacific lowlands have a tropical wet and dry climate with high temperatures but a distinct dry season from November through April. The interior highlands also have a distinct dry season, but, as is characteristic of a tropical highland climate, temperatures in this region decrease as elevation increases.

The interior highlands range from tierra templada to tierra fría. Tegucigalpa, in a sheltered valley and at an elevation of 1,000 meters, has a pleasant climate, with an average high temperature ranging from 86°F in April, the warmest month, up to 77°F in January, the coolest. Above 2,000 meters, temperatures can fall to near freezing at night, and frost sometimes occurs.

I GUESS MY QUESTION IS DO HONDURAN MILKSNAKES IN THEIR NATIVE HABITAT IN HONDURAS ORIGINATED HIGH ABOVE OR NEAR THE 2000 METER AREAS OF THE INTERIOR HIGHLANDS OF HONDURAS? AND ARE THEY FOUND IN THE WILD ONLY IN THE COUNTRY OF HONDURAS?

Anyone has knowledge of this? Terry?

Thanks,

Ray

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RAY

I would like to hear the answer to this as well.

Hondurans range in both lowland areas and areas higher up. I don't know their upper elevation range.

On a similar note, I've been in Sinaloan milksnake range in their Winter, and let me tell you, it is warm. Well, on the surface anyway. So where do they see 55 deg Winters? In sweaterboxes in captivity, that is one place. How about underground? I wonder that too.

Using tracking and temperature measurement devices on Gila monsters, it was shown that Gilas can find cool retreats in the upper 50s deg F even when surface temps were 120 deg F. Can this apply to milksnakes in more tropical areas? I don't know.

One thing is for sure, we as keepers often attribute that what we do in captivity defines what snakes do in the wild. Truth is, we are probably off on many levels.

I'd love to hear definite answer to your question.

I read somewhere that in the higher elevations it's cooler and there's mostly dark tangerines. They have evolved darker pigmentation to absorb heat from sunlight. Let's go an find out for ourselves!

I have never been to Honduras, but I have spent some time herping in northern Central America. In general, in northern Central America, milksnakes are common snakes of the lowlands, both in wet marshy areas and in tropical deciduous and thorn forests. They get up into the foothills, but I don't think they get up high in the mountains where it is cool.

These polyzona shown here are from an area of coastal marshland along the southern edge of the bay of Campeche. I doubt it gets much below 55° in the middle of the "winter". Generally temperatures are in the mid 70s to mid 90s. Nightime lows probably don't get out of the 60s many nights of the year.

That said, it IS cooler in the northern winter months, but it certainly isn't 50° and dark for 10 weeks!

Further south, in Panama, I found this DOR black milksnake in a highland area that was distinctly cool and wet. Daytime highs rarely make it out of the 70s and nighttime lows are in the upper 50s. That is true most of the year up there in these cloud forest habitats.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Ray, according to Williams' monograph on the milksnakes, L.t.hondurensis occurs throughout the northern 2/3 of Honduras and also the northeastern half of neighboring Nicaragua.

He lists elevational data from specimens as 40 and 400 meters, although it is only from two specimens. Williams states that most of the L.t.hondurensis range is "mosquito lowlands", and that it inhabits low to moderate elevations.

Scott Ballard

Hey Scott,

I am not familiar with "Williams' monograph on the milksnakes". Do you know Williams' full name so I can research some more? Your input is very helpful and I appreciate it. I also thank everyone who responded to my thread question...it has been very informative.
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RAY

......"Systematics and Natural History of the American Milk Snake, Lampropeltis triangulum" by Kenneth L. Williams. The second revision was done in 1988 by the Milwaukee Public Museum. I think it is out of print now, but you may be able to find a used copy from any of the natural history book dealers.

This is like the "bible" for milksnakes. It discusses every subspecies, its ranges, the meristic characters which separate them, and even some natural history information on them. There are also black & white line drawings depicting head and midbody pattern of each subspecies, as well as some color plates of them.

Hopefully you can find a copy.

Scott

Thank you so much. This has been really great and you have no idea how helpful you have been on this. The 12-year old kid I was referring to in my initial thread has an insatiable appetite for learning and if I can only find some hard copies, that would be her gift from Santa...lol.

Really appreciate the time you spent in answering my thread and providing me with valuable input.

Take care...

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RAY

......that monograph is somewhat technical in spots, since it was a peer reviewed scientific publication. They aren't that readily available, so I guess if I found a copy I'd want to make sure it was in MY stocking before it got put in a 12-year old's stocking

Good luck in your search efforts. If I see a copy available, I'll let you know.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Yeah, please let me know if you come across it. It sounds like a real great material to have and if you happen to stumble upon it either in bookstores, internet, museums or some publishers, i'd appreciate letting me know...or if you actually stumble upon it personally, maybe you can make a copy and send it to me
I'd be more than happy to pay for the shipping and actual material costs if it's not that expensive...just let me know in advance.

Or, do nothing really. The mere fact that you provided information that I can start with is more than enough to ask for.

Thank you so much,

Ray

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RAY

Sweet albino tangerine honduran Ray. That extreme hypo is awesome too!

your albino tangerine that you posted above (the pinstripe albino tangerine) is awesome too. Like my snow, he is one of my voracious eaters and I can't wait for them to grow up and breed. The one below is his sibling and she packs up a lot as well. My extreme is now in shed and will take new pics after shed.

Have a good one.

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RAY

there are 4 of them on this website

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Kenneth L. Williams&y=15&tn=Systematics and Natural History of the American Milk Snake, Lampropeltis triangulum&x=33

hopefully this will work for you

this site has one

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=6513685&qsort=p

but is one is a first ed.

.
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RAY

>>I GUESS MY QUESTION IS DO HONDURAN MILKSNAKES IN THEIR NATIVE HABITAT IN HONDURAS ORIGINATED HIGH ABOVE OR NEAR THE 2000 METER AREAS OF THE INTERIOR HIGHLANDS OF HONDURAS? AND ARE THEY FOUND IN THE WILD ONLY IN THE COUNTRY OF HONDURAS?

Hi Ray,

According to Louis Porras 1999 Vivarium article they're found from near the beaches to considerable mountain elevations, I think he mentions examples being found around the 6,000 ft elevation. Markel's Kingsnakes and Milksnakes says the range is Honduras, Nicaragua, and probably Northeastern Costa Rica.

Another question that might be worth asking--it's where i thought you were headed in the first place--is "then why do we brumate them?"

I guess it's worth remembering the range in one of the regions you mentioned is for average HIGH temperatures for the month...the cool month, with an average high of 77 degrees (25C) is worth considering: If we're right keeping our hondos around 80 degrees or a little warmer, and thinking those sorts of temps are ideal or minimums for suitable digestion, then in that cool month on average the HIGH temp would fall several degrees short of that minimum, and though night time temps aren't dramatically lower, it's reasonable to conclude that temps in a month like that might not be conducive to regular feeding activity. And what's brumation, but a period of cessation or reduction in food intake, with the relative inactivity that would accompany that behavior? Do we need to cool them to 55 or 60? Probably not. But if our goal in captivity is to create an environment in which the snakes will cease regular feeding behavior, those temps seem successful in achieving that goal.

This should be an interesting thread!

terry

Thanks Terry, I will pass this info to my friend's 12-yr old who has an insatiable appetite to learn about snakes.

Take care,
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RAY