Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was fortunate enough to acquire a breeding group last season and i couldn't be happier. The smaller one is a male and the larger one is one of the females. It's been interesting to see the little fellow eat quite regularly but grow at a very slow rate. Can anyone confirm this is a normal trait for this ssp?

male

Great looking snakes. Any locale on them,or are they generic taylori..?,either way,those are very neat looking.
Jeff Teel

Locale is west of Salt Lake City, Utah out of the Stansbury Mountains.

I no longer keep any Taylori but had some groups of diff localities. The growth in my CO stock was almost painfully slow for the first couple years but the UT stock was up to breeding size in 18 months. I found that once these females bred (also observed with Gentilis, Multistriata, and Syspila) they fed more agressively; a flighty snake that took only a couple large pinks per 7-10 days would pounce on a fat fuzzy every 3 days. By age 5, you have a well established breeder and by age 10, the clutches are huge (10 eggs, my record) and the eggs are the size of pigeon eggs. BTW my UT animals reached 3 feet and were built like a small boa. CO animals remained wiry and hit about 20-30" in 6 years.
Males are a bit tricky with feeding, very narrow window between spring warm up and breeding frenzy to get several good meals into them. Feeding typically resumes mid-summer then ceases by Sept. (with males), females need to be stuffed silly after the eggs are laid and before they hit the cooler. Fems will also shut down by Sept.
In talking to other Taylori fans, there seems to be a locality dependent growth difference. BTW, these milks aren't burned out at age 10, they've come into their prime.
Very cool Triangulum, too bad they're driven into an underground market. Unless you've got lots of documentation from a zoo or State of UT, don't discuss those animals on the forums or classifieds.
All for now, Jeff

My adults are proven breeders and were produced from long term captive's. As to the age, i'm at a loss. The majority of the adults are slightly similar in pattern and color which leads me to believe that they maybe closely related. Their respective weights average between 75 and 115 grams for multiple adults.
Hatchlings, that have eaten regularly on pinkie mice for approx 6 months have gained no more than 1-3 grams.

Have you had a hard time getting these hatchlings started on Pinkie mice or have you been forecd to use skinks?
Great info fella's. Please elabotate more if you have additional info.

Here's the fun part.
I start them (Gentilis, Multistriata, and Syspila also) on forced hopper tails and give them a tail/week for 4-8 weeks then offer pink heads (overnight) in a confined space. If the head is ignored, they get a tail and the process is repeated every 5-10 days until they finally take a head. They will feed, it's a bit of work but it makes a nice winter project.
Tails are a fine source of nutrition for hatchlings, many of mine are on tails for 6-12 months and are just as fat and sassy as the feeders. Larger hatchlings can get weaned mouse tails but I start them on hopper tails but do make sure they get something every week.
If you're not in the US, I assume you're in Canada and brumating these little snots will be a snap for you....
Don't hesitate to ask questions: Jis97@aol.com
All for now, Jeff

You were right to assume i was in the great white north.
It should be a fun and challenging experience over the next year. I was hopeing to experience the gentilis breeding cycle this year also but my male is still a little small so i decided to give them another year. Maybe it's a good thing considering i may end up with a few clutches of taylori to deal with. The advice on the tails is gladly taken and much appreciated. So i am guessing that 4-6 grams is the average weight for hatchlings for both ssp.?
Ric: Am i wrong to still classify these as mentioned ssp.?

they are from very old stock that I am unfamilliar with. The taylori has been protected in Utah for over 20 years. I know that locale very well having seen over 40 of them in one year while helping someone with a study, at one of the University's here in Northern Utah. The snakes are highly variable. They have been found with band counts that are higher then the Utah mountain king (off the charts). Other features that break them apart from the taylori are longer tail lengths, different head widths and lengths. The bodie's are generally thinner and less stout. Scale counts are way different. Look at the head shape on that snake. It is very unique. They are definetely a milk snake, but are definetly a different subspecies that has not been given a name yet. Probably may never have a new subspecies designation, as the Utah DWR has there heads up their you know what, and are not very good at research, and they not do they put any money into any type of reptile programs here. The state here is not very progressive with native Utah reptiles. They are more interested in law enforcement and nailing people then research of reptiles. This locale is also much cleaner in the white bands, more vivid reds, and so on. Not trying to be a splitter, but the difference between these and the mainstream taylori is huge. They are definetely not a taylori, and I have seen alot of milk snakes in Utah over the years. You have something that in my opinion is very unique. The fish and game here in Utah is very aggressive. I am sure you will be getting calls from undercover feds trying to make you a criminal. They are plentiful here in Utah and technically they should not be able to bother you as they do not key out as taylori. The only problem is that they don't care and would like to make your life miserable if they can. These guys do not play fairly and would jump at the chance to nail you for something even if they are not taylori. They will designate them as taylori for legal purposes. Thanks...Ric Blair

I'm glad i'm not in the great USA. I came accross these at an expo a swiped them up rather quickly as you can expect. I wish i had gotten the name of the vendor but i didn't really care at the time.

wow,quite a can of worms opened up here,lol....what a bunch of beureaucratic(sp.?-sorry,no dictionary nearby,lol) red tape and b.s....i can appreciate trying to protect wildlife,for sure-but who's gonna even try to get rich off such a difficult type of subspecies?there's a reason you see 50 honduran posts for every taylori/etc....only the obsessive fanatics with superhuman patience get into,let alone stick with,the tougher subspecies like these.....but i've read some good info in this thread,and learned a thing or two....to my original point of response-though i don't keep taylori,i currently keep temporalis-pretty similar as far as size,feeding,etc...and have had some males that ultimately end up being almost doubled by their female siblings...despite of almost matching her meal for meal;on the other hand,i have also had males grow twice as big/fast as thier female siblings...so i just conclude that it can go either way as far as sex/size ratio...like a friend suggested,perhaps we're just 'beating nature' by keeping these diminuitive ones alive in captivity...that's not meant to say they can't end up being a functional part of a succesful breeding project,as they can-just that they likely may have gotten 'weeded out' in the wild,before their bigger/stronger kin would have...hey look at it this way,better the female's the larger of the two,if one's gotta be bigger than the other,right?

Heres an 05 Rifle rd. CO. taylori that i produced this year for comparison. these guys start small and like Jeff advised,tails will get them started. All my 05's are now feeding on thawed with absolutely no lizard scenting. They imprint on the rodent scent of the tails and eventually switch to pinks. For me, they're easier to get strated then celaenops. Go figure. Great animals and really a pleasure to work with for the patient herper.

-----
Snakeyes herpetoculture

Now I really miss my Taylori group...sob....Jeff

wow