Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since it apparent that some unsuspecting buyers are inadvertently purchasing Eastern Indigo hybrids or should I says may be, a question in regard to the legality of purchasing a known hybrid from out of state? Can a person purchase say an Eastern X Texas cross in an otherwise Eastern unfriendly state? Or Eastern X Unicolor For the record I am not condoning the practice. Just trying to understand the law.

My hunch is that it will be interpreted by each state differently but an individual might find himself in trouble for shipping a mislabled animal across state lines?

My point in bringing this up is to enlighten everyone that it will default to this kind of thinking and then we will be regulated at the Species level if we do not regulate ourselves.

An intergradient specimen would be exempt from any federal interstate commerce regulations, though the legality of such a specimen, at the state level, would have much to do with how state legislation was written to this regard. Should a specimen in question be protected at the genus level, by the state, ie. Drymarchon spp., then any intergradient specimen would be subject to such laws. However, should the legislation be specific and include the genus, species and sub-species, then such specimens would not be granted protection, though you could still incur problems from state officials for harboring a specimen resembling a protected species, as was the reason John Cherry stopped working with Drymarchon, in Texas, many years ago.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Thank you. I appreciate the information.

producing Eastern/TXN intergrades??!!!
If someone is really doing this, we all need to know who so we can stay away from their production!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

In a perfect world it wouldn't happen. In a semi perfect world we would be able to find it out before any damage is done. In this world you have to think on your feet and unfortunatly greed is a tough compedater. I do not know of anybody off hand God forbid that this would ever happen but we all need to have open dialog to keep things in perspective and ward off what we can.

I would rather have a snake be put into a freezer then see someone pationate about having pure bloodlines find out after ten years of breeding his bloodlines have been tainted all along. Not to mention the fallout of ten years of offspring strewn about!

I may be way off base here but I think it is highly likely that there is a population of crosses viably breeding in south Texas. Luckily for the captive breeders, errebennus isn't allowed to be kept in Texas, but there are always the unscrupulous peolple out for a fast buck and there are always some who would take advantage of such opportunities. I would think that somewhere in the bayous of Louisiana an intergrade population could PERHAPS thrive, but thankful that the two are separate! I believe I have seen such an animal near Orange Grove, Texas and will be looking for it very hard. It is reported that ranchers way back in the day loosed many easterns on their properties. Local myth? I'm not so sure anymore. I wish I had the knowledge then to make the distinction, but I have the landowners permission to roam this property and hope to prove myself wrong. It just didn't look like any Texan I've ever seen, and I've seen a few. Just be very careful who you buy your captives from.
Todd Hughes

I have heard unsubstantiated rumors but no hard facts and I do not base my opinion on rumors.

okay, sighthunter, don't get uptight, I am looking into it. Spent the better part of 3 years finding this one and I did have it in hand. Next time I'll do a head scale count and get much better photos, but it was in a dark barn with a camera phone. Not looking to spread rumors, looking to establish facts! Just thought you could use a little info from the field. Sorry to ruffle feathers.
Todd Hughes

I did not realize you were the one who was finding them the floor is yours. I am all ears. Just meant heresay can hurt others withour meaning to. Sometimes some people are so pationate about a cause that they get people to jump into an empty pool.

The pictures I have been shown that were hybrids had the classic neck bar seen on uni and blacktail. If you can get a close up of neck region that would help.

no problem, Sighthunter. As you can see, there is "water" in this pool! C'mon in the waters fine! I saw my first Texan as a kid in the early 70's in George West and have been on there trail on and off for the better part of thirty years. I am not a biologist or herpetologist by degree, but have many years of snake experience. Found that last one in Del Rio last February poking his head out from under a concrete embankment,thermoregulating in winter, heavily parisitized but surviving. Love the animals, always have, always will. Just following up on an old Texas suburban legend! I lurk a lot on here, because mostly this is a breeder forum and I am a field guy. Keeping an eastern has always been a dream, but studying the Texan is living the dream, for me. Just wanting to share some tidbits at a time when things start to get slow, although this is by far the best forum out here! Two subadults, same county, Jim Wells,one neonate, Val Verde county,in shed,way different!
Todd Hughes

An Eastern crossed with a Texan would be a tough call. I guess the more it looked like an Eastern the more suspect it would be. If you come across another one try to get some close up pictures of the ventral surface all the way down to the tail tip. Thank you for sharing. I don't know if you could do that without breaking the law? LOL

This is an interesting "can of worms" you have brought up. Let's make the assumption you have a breeder not located in Texas or Florida that is creating these captive born intergrades. One would then think that this would be a way to make an end-around the respective no possession laws of both of these states. That said, I suppose you would need documentation from this breeder that these are indeed intergrades. This might not even be enough to satisfy wildlife authorities. I seem to recall that couperi and erebennus differ slightly in the arrangement of their labials. Now if you had a red faced solid black intergrade that had the erebennus labial arrangement or vice versa, this might tip the burden of identification in your favor.

I'm tempted to call Paul Moler at Florida Fish and Game to see how he personally would view this situation. I know for a fact that the Black pine/Florida pine intergrades that naturally occur on the Florida/Alabama border are given the same status for possession as amel Florida pines. Under Florida law you can only possess one "normal" florida pine. Amels and these Escambia county intergrades are exempt. You can have a room full of them if you so desire.

Who's going to benefit from this? Obviously the breeder who is producing these animals. Also you have folks from Florida that would love to have an Eastern........who cares what the labial scale arrangement is. I am pretty confident that Florida game authorities would not be real happy about this situation. I really don't know if Texas residents can legally possess a couperi. I'm sure all of you Eastern breeders are up on this. If they can, then possessing an intergrade would be silly. I believe couperi is the superior animal..........Steve G.

The dynamic is this. The more ground we the Indigo community loose the more we will fight back. Unfortunately rather than work with the powers that be the thinking will be to cheat the system. The system then will enforce tighter restrictions. It is a no win situation legitimate breeders will become criminals. The only way the situation will correct itself is to work with the powers that be if possible breeding hybrids just to put a black snake into someone’s hands in a state that restricts couperi is not the answer.

Superior looking, yes, but my God, man, the range! Texans can own coups with proper papers. I belive Dean posted some superb pics of head scalation behind the eyes near the back of the head earlier this year that made the i.d. a cinch, but I found that fellow March 13th and it was posted a bit after that. Not trying to break any laws, just having a close looksee. Also, not stating that someone was breeding them, but that it may be occurring in the wild. Now that would be interesting(to me) in the fact that a possible new sub is coming into being or an extinct form may be recreating itself. Could this be used to restock former ranges, would it be a good/bad thing to do, would it be genetically far enough from either? Neat questions. I could maybe see trying an introduction between populations, but not near any one of them. Mississippi, maybe?
Todd Hughes

The scary thing is that the Law in States is left to interpretation which means they can clean you out at any time!