Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We keep house/peacock/gold dust/lined geckos green anoles bahaman anoles vine lizards mantella frogs florida vine snakes all together and they have 0 problems. We've been doing this for quite some time. They eat pretty much the same size crickets and have around 65% humidity. Just try to keep the sizes similar. Dont put in like a giant anole or something...(im also Nasr_36)...well, if your not going to listen to me, atleast remove the mantellas cause they like it cold, and will most likely die in 80 temps...wich BTW should be more than that for the house/peacock/gold dust/lined geckos green anoles bahaman anoles.........how big is the tank anyway?
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azureus06 0.1.0 leopard geckos, 0.2.0 giant day geckos, 1.0.0 gold dust geckos, 1.1.0 stenodactylus geckos, 0.0.1 crested geckos, 1.0.0 anoles, 0.0.1 red eyed tree frogs, 0.2.0 green tree frogs, 0.1.1 golden mantella, 0.1.1 painted mantella, 2.1.0 dendrobates azureus azureus06

Mantellas are native to madagascar which isnt very cold and has temperatures higher than the one we keep the tank in. The point is, mantellas stay to the ground and stay in shady cool areas, unlike chameleons who bask towards the top of the trees. In any case, they have plenty of shady areas with moist dirt that stays very cool and a humidifier running every morning. Since they dwell on the ground their temperature stays 70-80 and the upper layers stay about 85 for the geckos and anoles. The tank is a 2' cube currently housing 4 anoles 3 geckos and 2 mantellas. Its not very populated right now but we should have a couple of vine snakes come in along with maybe a couple of mantellas.

Is there nothing left to your argument?

1. YES, mantellas are from madagascar, but they thrive in high altitude levels, (which is fairly cold)....2. Anoles & Gex need a 88* basking spot, which will fry the mantella ...3. Its almost impossible for the top temps to be a 15* difference, over a distance of 24".... 4. Anoles eat big prey, and what do mantellas eat? ...fruitflies, pinheads & ants/termites...6. the big crix will stress out the mantellas, and will nibble on them ....7. Almost all anoles & mantellas are wc. ...8. If the mantella touches anole/gex poop, it will get ill (frogs absorb through their skin...9. Vine snakes are verry aggressive, and it (so can anoles/gex) can eat 1" crix....and mantellas get to 1", which might get eaten..........ps- srry I didnt reply earlier, ive been busy....now im waiting for your argument?
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azureus06 I keep: leopard geckos, giant day geckos, gold dust geckos, stenodactylus geckos, crested geckos, anoles, red eyed tree frogs, green tree frogs, golden mantellas, painted mantellas, dendrobates azureus azureus06

n/p
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azureus06 I keep: leopard geckos, giant day geckos, gold dust geckos, stenodactylus geckos, crested geckos, anoles, red eyed tree frogs, green tree frogs, golden mantellas, painted mantellas, dendrobates azureus azureus06

Green anoles and day geckos eat micro crickets (2-3week) and you are correct mantellas eat pins or fruitfiles, thats why we mix the two together. Our mantellas are CB and purchased from captive breeders, and I have not yet seen a WC Blue morph green anole. Florida vine snakes live off large crickets and have yet to go after mantellas. Their bright colors (I think) are a natural deterrant. We throw 5 in and they're done before the end of the day, thus no stress. The terrarium is teraformed with a spot basking light to create a hotspot to the top left and has a large cave overhang area towards the bottom right with a humidifier setup which keeps the soil moist and cool.

(np)
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azureus06 I keep: leopard geckos, giant day geckos, gold dust geckos, stenodactylus geckos, crested geckos, anoles, red eyed tree frogs, green tree frogs, golden mantellas, painted mantellas, dendrobates azureus azureus06

What species of mantella?

Hi all. I know I am never on this forum and I'm only here now because someone has requested help in trying to impress the seriousness of mixing species upon you. Your key words are "I have NOT YET" seen anything adverse happen. Not yet doesnt mean it can't or won't and there is no way to deny that you are creating an environment for a mistake to happen - why? I can give you 100s of reasons not to mix species. What are you reasons to??? I have yet to hear any that impress me as being a slightly good reason - simply lame excuses. I see no need to jeopardize the well being of any living being for the benefit of human enjoyment or selfishness. And exactly how long have you had this enclosure with "no problems"? In that time, all animals in it are thriving, feeding, testing negative for parasites and have had no illnesses or deaths? I'd honestly have a hard time believing it has been around for years without incident. There simply is no way to replicate the wild in a 2 foot cube - PERIOD. And in the wild, several of these species would naturally stay away from one another and have the option of the great vast wild to do so. But, it's not you who suffers from your bad choices it's the animals and I know I won't change your mind - you'll either have your own horror story that makes you wake up and see or you'll continue to replace the casualties with more animals. That's just how it goes. But, hey, for the sake of your captives, I tried.
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Happy Frogging!!!

~Becki~

I think it might be more than 2 feet base but pretty sure its about 2 feet high....in any case, as hard as it is to believe they all are living fine and eating.....I'm not the one who set it up, it was actually a person with 15 years reptile experience and a degree in zoology. In any case, may I ask if you have ever tried mixing? Never know till you try...As for the blue anole, 1 comes out every 13,000 so they're pretty hard to get. We got our 3 over a period of 15 years from different sources. I'm sure its not as hard to obtain one as I make it sound but we havnt really tried, we simply get them when they are offered or are available. After all we're a pet shop not a breeder. They make a cool addition since they are rare though.

No, most certainly I have not nor will I ever try mixing - PEIROD. And you know why? Because I know that there is a chance that it will result in an animal being harmed and I do not take any chances with a life. That is the difference between people like me who are in this because we genuinely care about the well being of the animals and respect them and people like you who are - well, you're obviously not in this for the same reasons. I don't want to come off as I am attacking you so I'll leave it at that and pointing out that you are in the pet shop business and that says alot. And you didn't mention how long this tank had been up and going and what occurences it has had. And as far as the zoology degree, it couldn't mean less to me - you need a husbandry degree and a heart to be in this for the right reasons. I'm done here, I can see this is useless. Poor animals - this is why our government simply must do something to create guidelines for humanity and neglect laws of herps. It's disgusting.

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Happy Frogging!!!

~Becki~

What you wrote is deffinetly true but there is one thing that I think you might have over looked. Different species of mantellas come from different areas and require different temperatures. High altitude species like cowani, crocea and aurantiaca NEED to be kept cool to do well. Under 75F is ideal. Other low land species like some betsilio and expectata will do fine when kept in the high 70's and will withstand temperatures in the mid 80's for short periods of time as long as they are kept moist.

I think the main thing that I would worry about in your mixed tank is cage mates eating each other. No, small phelsuma species and mantella frogs do not eat the same sized food items. Most small phelusma species will easily take down a cricket the size of a mantella while most mantella frogs are rarely able to handle a cricket that is larger than a quarter inch in length. Mantella frogs preffer eating smaller insects like flightless fruit flies and 1/16 inch crickets. I know of two situations where people attempted to keep small phelsumas with mantellas and in each one of those a mantella frog was eaten by a gecko within the first year.

One last thing to consider is the amount and kind of lizards that are housed in your terrarium. Both male day geckos and anoles are very territorial. There will be fights and squabbles in your terrarium no matter what you do and a dominent animal will eventually come out on top. Less dominant males may be bullied out of food as well as passive females.

I would deffinetly rethink keeping all of those species in one tank. The majority of mixed species tanks do not surivive for more than a year without a few animals dieing. In order to house multiple species together you have to compromise at least one species care in order to accomidate another species. With rare animals like mantella frogs and phelsuma geckos it is irresponsible to jeopardize their lives by housing them with other species. This all just my oppinion and you can take it or leave it. I don't want this to sound like an attack, because it isn't, its just some additional information for you to think about. To end all of this here is a link to an article I wrote about mixing species with some additional resources at the bottom of the page: www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/communitytank.html Good luck with it all!
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
3.2 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
1.1 Mantella crocea
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
0.1 Hyla chrysoscelis or versicolor
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.0.1 Chrysemys scripta
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

You make a valid point. I think the reason this is possibly is simply because theres not that much of a size difference between them. You put 2 males in a cage and one will dominate but you put 5 of similar size and its pretty hard to tell whos boss since its more like king of the hill. In any case, this is a pet shop and things come and go making it pretty hard to establish territory. I agree over long periods of time things may start to go bad. What I said was that we have kept these species together for years, I didnt say we have kept those exact lizards together for years. Its a community tank, yet everything is for sale which may be a big part of this.

Look, if those weren't herps, that would be animal abuse. The caging, environment, and species involved is all wrong and you know it. But you're not the only pet shop to do it, and that's why most of us here try to be very careful when we go buy our pets. Because of exactly what you're doing. So, you do whatever you want because it's a free country, and we'll make sure to avoid shopping at stores that keep their animals under inhabitable conditions. It's your choice to do so, even though I don't know how you don't feel guilty at this point. I usually empathize with people that mix a little because I don't think it's absolutely wrong, just something that you have to do right. Meaning the species exist in the same habitats, co-exist well together, don't eat eachother, don't harm eachother, etc. But, what you're keeping together is a pure outrage and that's that. I don't even believe you that someone with even two months of experience would set up day geckos with mantellas with snakes and with anoles. That's just so ridiculous. And in a 2'X 2' enclosure. Sure.

Anyway, with both green anoles and Cuban brown/Bahamian anoles, the males are extremely territorial. And if they're sexually mature, they'll establish territory immediately. So that's the most invalid argument I've ever heard. And not only with eachother--they're capable, the brown males, of attacking anything in their territory that isn't food, a female, part of their habitat, or much too large. But, whatever.

I'm very nice to people that come here and post about mixing, but not in a situation like this. This is just wrong, and very, very disappointing.

For the sake of your animals, I HOPE they can cope well through this, although I also hope that they're not bought quickly or even bought at all. I don't like to think that people who try to rescue these animals actually just provide funding for you to keep doing this, but I know that that's why you people do this. And it's the most immoral thing to put animals in those conditions just so people come and "rescue" them for your financial gain. I'm not going to try to convince you to do anything different because I seriously doubt you'll even consider it. But I'm just letting you know that there are people out here that will refuse to buy animals from pet stores that do that, and I hope that those people will eventually make your policies change.

Can I ask the people flaming me if they have every tried to accomplish what we have? Do you think were some crazy petco store who puts a bunch of herps together just because we dont have space? Damn people its one thing to have some research behind you but those who dont even ask me on the SPECIES of snake and the SPECIES of mantella shouldnt even try and argue. Come on now, just because you read that anoles are territorial when they reach maturity doesnt make you a reptile behaviour specialist. This reminds me of the "rat breeders" that come into our store claiming theyre hardcore because they breed rats. Yeah and I draw stick figures good job asshole I'm an artist.

...which BTW, Frank already asked
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azureus06 I keep: leopard geckos, giant day geckos, gold dust geckos, stenodactylus geckos, crested geckos, anoles, red eyed tree frogs, green tree frogs, golden mantellas, painted mantellas, dendrobates azureus azureus06

You have not accomplished anything but a bad example for anyone purchasing reptiles and/or amphibians from your store.

One of the main reasons why negligent pet store owners house multitudes of species together: The customers see it, they want the same thing in their own home, so they will buy more.

You said that territory problems don't arise because the animals aren't in your care long. What about when they leave your care, possibly stressed and ill from the conditions they were kept in? And with new owners who may have the impression that a ludicrous set up like the one you have is commonplace when keeping herptiles? Not only are you irresponsible of the animals in your care, but this kind of behaviour also contributes to the millions of reptiles and amphibians that die in people's homes because the pet store guy set a bad example.

The problem here is that the animals are not in this stressful set up for long, so you aren't holding yourself responsible for the impact from keeping them in that crammed cage.

Do you tell your customers that a set up like yours is not recommended? If you do, hypocrisy is not something people take a shine to.

Anoles are territorial, and I have not simply "become an expert on it because read it in a book." I've been keeping anoles (A carolinensis and A. sagrei) for going on nine years, and they are very territorial. I have seen A. sagrei viciously attack gecko species as large as Gekko ulikovskii, and these were *small* anoles.

I challenge you: Name the species you have in this set up. All of them. Latin names. Several people on this board have asked you for it before, what's the harm? If your set up is so successful, then you've got nothing to hide or lie about. Latin names of all the species in that 2-foot cube, then we'll see what exactly you've been talking about.

Christina Miller
Herptiles.org

Excuse me? You already said the species of snakes and had refused to name the species of mantella--but ANY mantella. With day geckos, as sensitive as they are? And you don't know me. You don't know where I got my information--which is obviously more valid than yours. I've seen both brown and green male anoles attack much larger animals and I see it regularly between them. And I've also seen adults eat animals that are larger than mantellas, so I at least hope your mistakes cost you. Maybe then you'll learn?

By the way, calm yourself down because YOUR FLAMING AND PERSONAL ATTACKS as well as OBSCENE LANGUAGE is what's not supposed to be here. If you can't take people's valid opinions, maybe you shouldn't be posting online?

I don't care if you mix, just do so with research. It all depends on the animals you choose to use. And you think I believe a specialist on herps set up your tank? HA! That's the most hilarious thing I've heard in a lo-o-ong time. I'm not naive and I'm certainly not stupid, so quit the bull. And what can you say about PetCo if you're engaging in the same practices? Sounds hypocritical to me, but I'm just telling you how I see it because I already know you aren't going to change because basically all of us disagree with you and have points. You don't care, you ARE making money out of this by overpricing the animals and using people's pity for these abused animals to get them to buy.

I already told you, do what you want. But I'll do my best to let people onto what your store is doing, and when you start to lose money then you might start to do things right.

Frank Williams told me about HRMSS ( think that's it) heat related muscular spasm syndrome. Your mantellas will die if exposed to heat about 85 F. Also, in a tank measuring 2'x2'x2' (60 gallons) heat can't easily escape therefore roasting the frogs. Also, if you have a screen top, it won't hold humidity necessary for the mantellas to thrive/live. My thouhts...

And if I seem liek I'm butting in a no nothing, I keep:
3.1 waxy monkey treefrogs (P. sauvagei)
2.1.2 orange-legged mnokey frogs (P. hypochondrilais)
2.0 razor-backed monkey frogs (P. vaillanti)
2.2 fire-bellied toads (B. orientalis)
0.0.3 Kokoe dart frogs (P. aurotaenia)
0.0.10 Madagascar Green rain frogs (S. pustulosa)
1.0 Green treefrogs (H. cineara)
etc.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Theres plenty of cool soil and cool spots for them to hide in. As I mentioned earlier, we have a cold air humidifier hooked up to the tank. And as a side reference, we keep all the species you listed and probably 12 others in the frog section alone. Our ordering/price list consists of over 80 different species of frogs.

Ok for 1 thing, manellas need to be at a higher humidity than 65%, for 2 a florida vine snake eats small lizards, and for 3 what's the name of your pet shop so I don't go there. And i have tried some odd community tanks, and they worked for a while, maybe a year max and then everything starts dying. And why force the mantellas to stay low to the ground, when they need to move around? I think you need to just quit spreading ignorance and your cheapness and go set up some extra tanks. And as for your zoo guy, who cares, has he been informed of what all is in that tank, and does he have all those years of experience with reptiles and amphibians? Well I'll let you answer then I'll be back when you have responded. And I have over 20 years experience with reptiles and amphibians.

In order to thrive, mantellas can't have "cool spots" in the tank. The whole tank needs to be around 70 F in order for them to thrive, with no basking bulbs etc. Because they are from bottom level that have little/no lighting. Idt doesn't matter if you have some plants covering the lgiht, it still produces heat. The main thing is, these animals (mantellas and snakes, lizards, whatever) cannot/should not be mixed for obvious reasons due to their natural habitat. i will not argue, for I am correct on this matter.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

I as well will not argue, for I am as correct on this matter as you since you put forth no viable argument. Untill you site some books and prove me wrong its stalemate genius. For all I know, the 2 foot vine snake that we had in the tank for 2 months hasnt touched a single anole or gecko because its just fine eating crickets. 2 feet my friend, thats a vine snake fat enough to fit a small pinky. If you want to complain about animal rights then go complain to the people experimenting on rats not people who work in a petstore who actually know what theyre doing.

You say you know what you are doing, but apparently you don't, or you wouldn't be mixing all of those species in a single enclosure. I have tried community tanks, with species that have very similar care requirements so don't talk to me about hard evidence when I have had about 30 dead animals due to mixing. I was a bit arrogant for a while and it took a while to learn my lesson. And just because you work in a pet store doesn't mean you knwo anything other than you can get a buisiness going. Animals have nothing to do with buisiness other than you can sell them. And there is that small thing called parasites that all reptiles and amphibians have and that spread from animal to animal very easily, and no matter how well you clean that tank will spread to each of those animals in the enclosure. The parasites the animals have origionally are not harmful to that particular animal, but it is harmful to the other animals that are from other regions. I could go on and on about this for hours, but I'm going to sleep. I'll be back in the morning.

"As captives, mantellas are most comfortable at a temperature range of 68F to 76F (19C-24C); remember that many of these are montane species. Mantellas become obviously discomfited when temperatures near 80F (27C), and lethargic when temperatures drop much below 65F (18C)."

Source: "Frog, Toads, and Treefrogs - A Complete Pet Owner's Manual." By Richard D. Bartlett and Patricia P. Bartlett. Published by Barron's Educational Series, 1996. Information from page 95 of 104.

Mr. Bartlett is a very popular author among reptile and amphibian keepers, he has written dozens of excellent books on the care of many, many species.

Christina Miller
Herptiles.org

Go over to the field & observation forum and tlak to RD himself. Also, you may have the species of frogs I have, plus 12, but atleast mine will live. You are so stubborn/arrogatn that you probably provide these wonderful animals with the worst possible tanks, like you have for the jantellas.

That snake has been in their 2 months?! Wow! I could live with a tiger for 2 months, but after I would get tired, hungry, and become food. You obviously will have a tank full of dead aniamls soon, but what do you care? You own a pet store and will probably sell them once they look like crap and then replace them to try to make it sound as if you are right. You are a disgrace to everyone keeping herps.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Thanks I'll keep that in mind. Next time I'm at work I'll throw 4 thermometers in there and give you the readings around the tank. Then again, wont do much good posting it since nobody will believe me anyway. In any case, I like it how people make pet stores out to be these evil corporations killing animals and all that. Can't really prove you wrong but not all stores are like that. Petco is the one bringing the image down I'll agree with that....

I have been in about 40 different pet shops and only about 2 have been keeping their reptiles and amphibians in proper conditions, and that was only because I told them what conditions the animals needed to be in. I'm sick of seeing all these disgusting mix tanks in pet shops. We with the knowledge need to take it upon ourselves to educate, not spread the ignorance that petco is infamous for. By mixing all those species you are basically killing them. They all have their space requirements and a pair of mantellas shouls have at least a 10 gallon a pair of anoles a 10 gallon each of the geckos a 20 gallon each, the snake a 10-20 gallon. So I know those animals are not getting the proper habitat and care that they need. So as that person suggested if you don't believe us go talk to R.D.Bartlett on that forum.

I don't even think PetCo would attempt what you're doing. How come your pet store is so perfect, yet PetCo is so evil? The majority of us here have already established that you're doing things the wrong way as long as you're mixing what you're mixing. So why should we forgive your store and listen to you and go to it if you don't want to hear us out for the sake of the animals?

You are automatically ignoring what you disagree with, and shun and disregard questions like "what species do you have?" but then try to use it against ME for not personally asking you what species you have. What's up with the selective hearing, huh?

Either way, we think YOUR, not all, pet stores are running things in a very disagreeable way, and there's only one thing you can do about it. It's not whine about it, it's change.

I posted the species if you didnt notice. As for the rest of the pet shop comments, take into account the fact that I dont own it nor do I have the power to give every mantella we have a sepearate 10 gallon tank. Unfortunatelly you cant shut down every pet shop in the world and nor can I. The best thing we can do is provide the best care you can while being employed there. From what I have seen and experienced, these species live just fine together. No doubt there is some middle ground that they coexist on but they do not seem to be stressed or lethargic so thats the basis of my argument. Ofcourse the good way to keep a reptile is alone (in most cases) or in a pair but keep in mind that the best way is to keep it in its place of origin, aka. nature. I dont see any of the breeders releasing their glad ware containers full of leopard geckos. Any way theres been no problems so far and the temperatures I measured after cleaning the tank (it is a 2x2 after measurements) suit the herps living within. The top end of the tank stays 83-87 while the lower end stays at 74-78 due to the cold air humidifier and wet soil. Unfortunatelly I can care less for your THAT CANT BE POSSIBLE arguments because they will get us nowhere. I have my thermometer/humidity readings and you have your speculation. If any trouble arises in the tank I will let you all know so you can flame me further.

3 Mantellas can fit fine in a 10 gallon. So why cram all those species plus 2 mantellas in a 60 gallon? I see no logic...
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Because it looks nice and has more terrain overall. We felt that they would be happier with more terrain and the other species pose no threat to them. On a side note, I love the picture in your signature. We havnt had waxy's for a long time unfortunatelly.

except that they look liek crickets as Frank mentioned. I like sauvagei.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Wanna play Shadow?

2 Mantella Betsileo
1 Anolis Extremus
3 Anolis Chlorocyanus
1 Phelsuma Laticauda Laticauda
1 Phelsuma lineata chloroscelis
1 Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis

The vine snake was sold. I will double check on the size of the tank just to be certain....can't really estimate feet since I grew up on metric.

What happened to the Bahaman anoles and green anoles? Were you just using the more common relative of the species, or what? This isn't making much sense.

They sold. Its a pet store remember?