Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...I have recently learned that the Butantan Institute in Sao Paulo Brazil has been conducting mitochondral DNA analysis of Epicrates cenchria. I have also heard that they may soon propose the recataloging of the 9 recognized subspecies plus the unrecognized Guyanan subspecies into just five seperate SPECIES with no subspecific differentiation. I would be very interested to see just how alike and different these snakes really are at the genetic level and I applaud any effort to find out this information. On the other hand, this will likely cause we breeders and keepers some consternation as we see some of our favorite subspecies become lumped in with other subspecies. Perhaps at the end of all this we will refer to obviously morphologically different Isla Marajo and Peruvian specimens like the Boa Constrictor people refer to their Hogg Island Boa constrictor imperator and Northern Brazilian Boa constrictor constrictor?
...I have learned this from a man in Brazil who is about to graduate from veterinary school and also keeps (under IBAMA license) a pair of breeding Rainbow Boas that were reported to have been collected on Isla Marajo. He emailed PICs of one of these snakes and it does have the more rounded head and very limited bright crescents and is dark like my barbouri but it is definitely a dark orange rather than the dark burgundy of my Isla Marajos.
...I have emailed the Institute and hope to hear back on this subject.
Jeff

This regrouping of Epicrates cenchria into five or six totally different species should make both the lumpers and the splitters happy. The lumpers get fewer(zero actually) subspecies and the splitters get five or six DIFFERENT species. Should make everybody real happy??????
Jeff

>>...I have recently learned that the Butantan Institute in Sao Paulo Brazil has been conducting mitochondral DNA analysis of Epicrates cenchria. I have also heard that they may soon propose the recataloging of the 9 recognized subspecies plus the unrecognized Guyanan subspecies into just five seperate SPECIES with no subspecific differentiation. I would be very interested to see just how alike and different these snakes really are at the genetic level and I applaud any effort to find out this information. On the other hand, this will likely cause we breeders and keepers some consternation as we see some of our favorite subspecies become lumped in with other subspecies. Perhaps at the end of all this we will refer to obviously morphologically different Isla Marajo and Peruvian specimens like the Boa Constrictor people refer to their Hogg Island Boa constrictor imperator and Northern Brazilian Boa constrictor constrictor?
>>...I have learned this from a man in Brazil who is about to graduate from veterinary school and also keeps (under IBAMA license) a pair of breeding Rainbow Boas that were reported to have been collected on Isla Marajo. He emailed PICs of one of these snakes and it does have the more rounded head and very limited bright crescents and is dark like my barbouri but it is definitely a dark orange rather than the dark burgundy of my Isla Marajos.
>>...I have emailed the Institute and hope to hear back on this subject.
>>Jeff

Jeff,
Definitely looking forward to hearing more about this....thanks for sharing.....

Chris O
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New Site Coming Soon.........
www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Chris,
...Do you want to adopt a Boa Constrictor? I have been offered one through a second party. Second party (a cousin? maybe) reports that snake has grown too big to feed mice and owner does not want to mess with rats. Third and fourth party reports are that snake has struck at owner a couple times. As you have probably figured out Savannah is a small town where full honest disclosure on any subject is optional but someone you know can probably add information to the story. Last thing I need is a Bci which I am pretty sure it must be. Let me know if you want it and I will make a phone call to find out full misinformation about it.
Jeff

>>Jeff,
>>Definitely looking forward to hearing more about this....thanks for sharing.....
>>
>>Chris O
>>-----
>>New Site Coming Soon.........
>>www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
>>Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

np
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New Site Coming Soon.........
www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Chris,
...It turns out that the third party reports were way wrong. The snake is a Ball Python. The lady has had it over a year and it has grown large enough that it is now eating rats. It was larger than a baby when she got it. She says it is doing fine. Do you still want it?
Jeff

>>np
>>-----
>>New Site Coming Soon.........
>>www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
>>Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

.
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New Site Coming Soon.........
www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Personally, the "Peruvian" and "Marajo" rainbows DO need to be synonymised with cenchria. They illustrate the two ends of a cline, and look very similar. A very similar example would be in the posion frog, E.trivittatus. Where I did my research in Colombia this frog had two stripes. Further south near Leticia, they have three. And to the north east, they have three.

Biologically there is no reason for these dubious subspecies. For my PhD thesis (and many years since) I looked into snake and lizard speciation, biogeography, and the quaternary history of the Amazon region. One can look at evidence of climate change, forest refugia, and corresponding areas of endemism / speciation. Such evidence does not correspond with these rather dubious subspecies.

I have seen many rainbows from the upper Amazon basin, and gaigei 'type' boas are widespread. However, and more importantly, there is also alot of variation! You will see both gaigei and cenchria type animals in the same place. Similarly, I am sure (although haven't seen specimens) that boas from Belem show a similar range of colouration and scalation to those that occur on Marajo.

Common names are always a problem in this hobby. Unfortunately, animals do not have maps, and do not know that they shouldn't cross country borders. If for example gaigei WAS a valid subspecies, it would be better termed the Upper Amazon Rainbow Boa. Similarly, when (!) they are synonymised, the "Brazilian" rainbow would be better termed the Amazonian Rainbow Boa / Amazon Basin Rainbow. Everbody would then understand that this animal occurs all over the Amazon, not just in Brazil!

I have attached a photograph of my old pet, from the lower Apaporis river in Colombia (She wasn't too happy when I told her she was actually a Brazilian....or is that Peruvian??).

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Caparu,
....I share your opinion that gaigei and barbouri "look" enough like cenchria cenchria that they probably should be lumped together. There is no way to argue with the fact that the Amazon with it's large annual ebb and flood must have carried inestimable numbers of Epicrates down the river over the last ten thousand years. Even though I do have a dog in this fight in that my gaigei and barbouri will eventually be less desireable and valuable with this reclassification I do see the need for it. On the up side for me personally the recognition of alvarezi and asissi as fully seperate species will probably increase the demand for the few that I can produce of them. I have been very interested in Rainbow Boas since I got my first one in 1969. The information about the different subspecies has been difficult to find and has always seemed suspect. The original classifications of the subspecies were based on limited samples and obviously did not include specimens from all the large area of this species range. Much of this range has been practically inaccessible until very recently. Now that it appears that classification will soon be revised based upon mitochondral DNA analysis I only hope that the research includes enough specimens from enough collection locations to get it right. Any revision of the classification of these snakes will be met with resistance from some quarters. It would be a shame for all we enthusiasts and the scientists to argue over this for some period of time and LATER DNA analysis to prove that gaigei and/or barbouri might be genetically as different as cenchria cenchria is from cenchria maurus. I have watched with some amusement as the Boa Constrictor people repeat the same arguements that we were having when I first got into this hobby. There are obvious parallels in the two types and their recent history with man. The explosion of the morph industry has caused so much crossing of different subspecies and locality variations of Boa Constrictor that the water has recently become totally muddied. As long as we breeders see a dollar to be made we will have an ax to grind and will probably continue to muddy the water.
Jeff

>>Personally, the "Peruvian" and "Marajo" rainbows DO need to be synonymised with cenchria. They illustrate the two ends of a cline, and look very similar. A very similar example would be in the posion frog, E.trivittatus. Where I did my research in Colombia this frog had two stripes. Further south near Leticia, they have three. And to the north east, they have three.
>>
>>Biologically there is no reason for these dubious subspecies. For my PhD thesis (and many years since) I looked into snake and lizard speciation, biogeography, and the quaternary history of the Amazon region. One can look at evidence of climate change, forest refugia, and corresponding areas of endemism / speciation. Such evidence does not correspond with these rather dubious subspecies.
>>
>>I have seen many rainbows from the upper Amazon basin, and gaigei 'type' boas are widespread. However, and more importantly, there is also alot of variation! You will see both gaigei and cenchria type animals in the same place. Similarly, I am sure (although haven't seen specimens) that boas from Belem show a similar range of colouration and scalation to those that occur on Marajo.
>>
>>Common names are always a problem in this hobby. Unfortunately, animals do not have maps, and do not know that they shouldn't cross country borders. If for example gaigei WAS a valid subspecies, it would be better termed the Upper Amazon Rainbow Boa. Similarly, when (!) they are synonymised, the "Brazilian" rainbow would be better termed the Amazonian Rainbow Boa / Amazon Basin Rainbow. Everbody would then understand that this animal occurs all over the Amazon, not just in Brazil!
>>
>>I have attached a photograph of my old pet, from the lower Apaporis river in Colombia (She wasn't too happy when I told her she was actually a Brazilian....or is that Peruvian??).
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Jeff,

I don't see any reason why the value of these beautiful animals should alter, due to any reclassification. They will remain 'specialist' rainbows, fetching higher prices, for many years and I cannot see why anyone would see any benefit in crossing the cenchria 'localities.' If anything, all I can envisage is certain dedicated individuals such as yourself, selectively breeding these distinct phenotypes, to create some absolutely knock-out rainbows. Look at say the B.c.c and B.c.a localities being produced of late. Most are a far cry from anything one would find in the wild, but most people could argue they are far more beautiful. These animals will never be released back into the wild so why not create the 'perfect' Surinam for example?

With regards to the analysis you make some very valid points. I sincerely doubt that there is enough material currently available at present to carry out a thorough analysis. Unfortunately taxonomy is littered with examples of this. Another important thing to remember is that DNA analysis is a tool. Morphology should also be used in my opinion. We will see. Taxonomy is always are difficult area and often what phylogeny suggests has little or no use in a practical, and conservation minded world. Look at the reclassification of e.g. the white lip vipers in S.E. Asia. I cannot remember off the top of my head how many new species have been reassigned but none of them can be identified ‘in the hand’ as it were. What is the species below? Who knows? One could argue that this is irrelevant. I don’t think it is.

Lumpers, splitters………it will continue forever……..

Have a good day,

Ian

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Wow, really interested in hearing about this. I know I'm years off, but have been trying to formulate a plan for doing similar. Damn!

I know very little about mitochondrial dna analysis, but when Humans share over 97% genes with chimps and even gorillas, are they really going to be able to show statistically significant differences within the genus? I hope so and can't wait to find out!

..please keep us posted on that study.

that my Hog is NOT am imperator? Just kidding....I really don't care one way or the other. I just would like to know the proper name. This is a good example of how I feel about the names....I want to call her the right name, but don't care what name it is. My baby finally shed and you are right . The skin is considerably thicker than my BRB's or whatever they will become. I have decided to keep closer to the "starvation" feeding schedule with her since I like unconventional recommendations....after all that is what's working with my Rainbows. I think I'll continue to listen from people like yourself and people of similar standing for my Hog Island whatever it is.

On a recent trip to Mexico I was peering intently into a big bush trying to decide whether this bird was a Red-crowned Ant-Tanager or a Red-Throated Ant-Tanager. Since I'd seen the Red-Crowned Ant-Tanager in Trinidad I really wanted this bird to be the other. Damn range maps.
The splitters are great for lists but often hard to buy into sometimes.
Good topic,
Paul