Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"Numerous protozoans are found on reptiles; many are harmless commensals. The most serious protozoal pathogen of reptiles is Entamoeba invadens. Clinical signs are anorexia, weight loss, vomiting, mucoidal or hemorrhagic diarrhea, and death. Entamebiasis may be epidemic in large snake collections. Herbivores appear less susceptible than carnivores; a number of reptiles that seldom become affected or die can serve as carriers, including garter snakes, northern black racers, and box turtles. While most turtles are resistant, the giant tortoises are susceptible. Other resistant groups include eastern king snakes, crocodiles, and cobras (possibly as an adaptation that allows them to eat snakes). Most boas, colubrids, elapids, vipers, and crotalids are highly susceptible. Transmission is by direct contact with the cyst form. Hepatic abscesses containing numerous E invadens trophozoites are common in chronic cases. At necropsy, gross lesions may extend from the stomach to the cloaca. The intestine shows areas of ulceration that tend to coalesce, caseous necrosis, edema, and hemorrhage. Multifocal abscesses in a swollen, friable liver are seen in the hepatic form. Identification of trophozoites or cysts in a wet preparation of fresh feces or tissue impressions, or in histologic sections is diagnostic." -- The Merck Veterinary Manual

Now, don't tell me some of you wouldn't mistake those same symptoms for crypto, which isn't even phylogenetically in the same ballpark. My point of sharing this is:

1) Always get your mysterious deaths checked out so you know what you're dealing with.

2) Be wary of exposing reptiles from outside to your animals.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

How about, more snakes die from poor husbandry, more specifically, lack of attention.

Or, you ending your post with recomending folks with sick snakes take their captives to a vet instead of asking whats wrong on internet forums.

Or how about lobbying for Vet clinics to have their prices in the ballpark with the value of the patient, instead of 100 times more. This reality supports pandemics of reptile disease, as vet costs do not reflect the value of the patient. Of course you can always go the other way around and install a set minimum price for living animals that will allow vet visits. I know, most likely, neither of these will ever take place.

If you ever went to a large reptile show, you would soon be under the impression that these types of disease are not a problem or all those snakes would be dead. As nearly all come in contact with eachother thru handling and rehandling by the public. Just thoughts for fun, FR

I think the problem with people shying away from vet costs is that there are too many dog-cat vets who don't specialize in reptiles but still accept them as patients and charge the ridiculous fees people will blindly pay. The ARAV site does not require any extra training or certification to become listed as a reptile vet, and I've personally dealt with some vets who joined the ARAV for the exposure and the prestige without knowing squat about reptiles. People need to be able to discern the good vets from the bad because there are some really lousy vets out there who can really traumatize your animals. I've dealt with ones who were recommended to me by acquaintences, who threw a few big words around, prescribed medication, and then closed their doors when emergencies occurred after office hours.

Now let me say something else about parasitic amoebae like E. invadens. They can encyst in host tissue and basically stay resistant to shotgun treatments of Flagyl and keep the host asymptomatic. I wasn't trying to say that this parasite is running rampant in captive collections. But there are a ton of reptile ailments out there that people aren't aware of because only one or two diseases get all the press.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

The problem with knowing about things like you are discussing is that you will start seeing things in your collection you can take as symptoms. When actually chances are there's no need to medicate your snakes, but we go into a panic[been there done that]. The best and worst thing you can know how to do is a fecal exam. It is great to know so you can check your snakes if you feel you have too....but the thing is it is practically a given you will find something in there that scares you. The bottom line from where I see it is extremely clean cages and fresh water with a good hot spot is enough to keep your snakes thriving. Nature gave them an immune system capapble of rebounding them back into good health. Now if you find a swollen hard mass in your snakes mid section....it may be time to panic. But many other things that we worry about can be avoided by having good husbandry...clean water, clean cages, and proper temps. The number one mistake people make is by NOT quarantining new animals. Also constantly adding snakes to their collection. When numbers start growing suddenly mistakes are made like putting water dishes from one cage into another. Or shuffling uneaten food from one cage to another. Some people think quarantine for a week or to is adequate, I think not. I quarantine for 2 months minimum unless I am without a doubt certain the snake is coming from someone who maintains thier collection as clean as mine. I have seen things appear wrong in my collection, and of course I investigated and even treated when neccesary. I actually went overboard on it which was stressful for the snake and kept him ill longer than it would have been....stress is very bad for a sick snake and medicating snakes is stressful. However keying in on the title of this post, Crypto is VERY hard to see under a microscope....and I do not hear about it very often except from Boide breeders and people who keep a lot of wild caughts. You hit the nail on the head when you said if a snake dies a mysterious death taking it to a vet for necropsy is the BEST thing you could do for peace of mind. Self diagnosis is really hard unless there's that mass in its midsection. Tom Stevens

someone gave me a snake and it died with a mass like described. what is that from? should i worry about my other snakes?

How long ago? If you are not meticulous about washing your hands and had let uneaten food from the sick snakes cage be offered to other snakes or possibly put the sick snakes water in another cage yes you should be concerned. Please let us know if your snakes are in a rack system or seperate cages....just descride your set up and give some details of what happened. Pics of the dead snake woulda been helpful. Or of the affected area while it was alive. Tom Stevens

I've been to large reptile shows, and I've been to houses of people who own large (100 species) collections. Yes, these people will allow animals to exchange hands without sanitation, and yes a ton of other people do it too. But the reality is that quite a few unexplained deaths DO occur in collections, and people will merely brush it off with the excuse that these things happen. Too often animals will die unexpectedly, and without a necropsy, people will try to draw their own conclusions using their own inadequately educated opinions.

So now this leads to my next point about self-education. You brought up the fact that learning to do fecal tests at home is one's best weapon. But in my opinion, this leads to a blind assurance because once again, people are relying on their own opinions that are based on insuffient training. Your statement alone lends support to my argument. Fecal tests are generally only effective at detecting intestinal parasites. There are a wealth of other parasites that would need blood work performed in order to be detected. And yes, many of these organisms are prevalent in reptiles. How prevalent they are in captive collections isn't certain because people aren't getting their animals checked. In some cases, it's not even practical because many reptiles are too small to have even one drop of blood drawn.

Anyway, I can tell you that crypto is not too difficult to see, but it needs to be stained properly. It also helps if you're looking at it at 1000x and with immersion oil.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! You are gonna judge me and my experience by one reply to your post? Thanks a needed a good laugh. My point was when you look into specifics of the health of a snake you may be alarmed to discover things that may cause you too panic. Crytpo is not too difficult to see? That is funny....every vet I have ever discussed this with would whole heartedly disagree. I know fecals are good for not much else than parasites. What I was getting at is if you do a fecal and look for parasites it is almost a given you will find some...it is common in gut flora. If people look under the scope fro Crypto they may indeed convince themselves they see it....and then what? There's no treatment anyway. Maybe people YOU know commonly have snakes die in their collections....not here sister! I do see plenty of people holding snake after snake at shows....and if your thoughts were correct this hobby would be nowhere as everyones snakes would be perishing left n right. Go ahead....explain some more about Crypto.....other than one unfortunate persons experience as of late....there has not been talk of this on here or other forums in a long long time, as it is not common... I consult with 3 vets on ANYTHING health related when it comes to my snakes if I feel I need to look into something. I have succesfully treated RIs, Bacterial Infection and parasites and have never lost one snake other than one that was sick when I bought it. I have produced hundreds and my collection is up to over 70 animals. It's posts like this that crack me up, you don not have a clue to who you are talking too but you can say " So now this leads to my next point about self-education. You brought up the fact that learning to do fecal tests at home is one's best weapon. But in my opinion, this leads to a blind assurance because once again, people are relying on their own opinions that are based on insuffient training". The vets I speak too have all the confidence in me to treat my snakes myself and will supply with me with what I need to do so. If I feel they should do it I will gladly pay them to do so. And by the way, Crypto is sold permanently sealed in a slide because most feel it needs to be seen before you are certain you can identify it. Most do not bother, as it is about as common as fish with feathers. Tom Stevens

My point is that people try to play vet and diagnose their snakes. Just look at the posts above and below this thread that have people asking about weird symptoms and deaths they're not sure about. Not all people take their animals to the vet to find out what's wrong. Instead, they come onto these forums, read websites, and try to pinpoint what THEY think is the problem when they don't have enough experience to be the judge. Look at how many people browse through picture galleries and websites then misidentify subspecies and/or morphs. They don't have a trained eye for that kind of thing yet, but they still try to swear by their own perception.

I didn't say you were one of these people, but that doesn't really matter. You've misunderstood my point because I never once advocated that people should shotgun their animals with medication. If anything, I'm against that myself. What I am saying though is that when anybody notices something strange going on--lethargy, mucous, abnormal swellings--he or she should get it checked out and not try to substitute the advice of a vet by perusing websites and forums.

I do want to reiterate though that fecal tests generally only detect intestinal parasites. Some parasites completely bypass the gut in their life cycle and would never show up in fecal tests.

And gee, thanks for laughing at me but I've spent quite a bit of time in parasitology labs looking at parasites under the microscope, and I don't think crypto is one of the harder ones to identify. At least it's got some distinguishing features that would help it stand out during scanning, whereas some of the other protozoans like amoebae are rather nondescript until you're looking right at it.

By the way, you might not think crypto is prevalent in captive reptile collections, but it is. It's been established that several of the big name leopard gecko breeders have it in their collections based on tests that were done on random samples.
info and more info This parasite isn't host-specific, and considering how common leopard geckos are, it could very well pass into other reptiles.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

My point is that people try to play vet and diagnose their snakes. Just look at the posts above and below this thread that have people asking about weird symptoms and deaths they're not sure about. Not all people take their animals to the vet to find out what's wrong. Instead, they come onto these forums, read websites, and try to pinpoint what THEY think is the problem when they don't have enough experience to be the judge. Look at how many people browse through picture galleries and websites then misidentify subspecies and/or morphs. They don't have a trained eye for that kind of thing yet, but they still try to swear by their own perception.----Those people should not own snakes, and if they can't afford a vet that is too bad for the snake. This girl talking about her dead snake...well she didn't mention she was on here not long ago complaining about another one she bought that also died....yet both snakes look perfect in the pctures? It is the owners in many cases, not the snakes that have problems....

I didn't say you were one of these people, but that doesn't really matter. You've misunderstood my point because I never once advocated that people should shotgun their animals with medication. If anything, I'm against that myself. What I am saying though is that when anybody notices something strange going on--lethargy, mucous, abnormal swellings--he or she should get it checked out and not try to substitute the advice of a vet by perusing websites and forums.-----who said ANYTHING about shot gunning? not me. What you missed was my point that if you look into things[especially newbies] you are going to THINK you have found this n that. That is followed by panic, and then you have people forcing meds down thier snakes throats which in many cases is pointless and does more harm than good. And if they THINK they have Crypto then what? They should freeze the snake? People would be killing healthy snakes left n right if that were the point. Between the 3 vets I consult in they all disagree on some points anyway so this is all chance anyway. Your post said self diagnosing.....so why do you keep mentioning vets? That is not self....this would be vet diagnosing.

I do want to reiterate though that fecal tests generally only detect intestinal parasites. Some parasites completely bypass the gut in their life cycle and would never show up in fecal tests.

And gee, thanks for laughing at me but I've spent quite a bit of time in parasitology labs looking at parasites under the microscope, and I don't think crypto is one of the harder ones to identify. At least it's got some distinguishing features that would help it stand out during scanning, whereas some of the other protozoans like amoebae are rather nondescript until you're looking right at it.------ Again self diagnosing, not everyone has a scope with 1000X magnification lying around, nor do they know about using stains and finding Crypto. The first time I looked under a scope I saw tons of things that scared the crap out of me, and it was nothing at all to be concerned over. I also found things that one of my vets missed. So I am no slouch.

By the way, you might not think crypto is prevalent in captive reptile collections, but it is. It's been established that several of the big name leopard gecko breeders have it in their collections based on tests that were done on random samples.
info and more info This parasite isn't host-specific, and considering how common leopard geckos are, it could very well pass into other reptiles.----This is not a Gecko forum so leave those out of it. I could give two ----s about lizards and the fact many have cooties is why I want nothing to do with them. A few of my friends read your post and said they knew people who had Crypto....as if I was wrong. Well I am sorry but if you want to look at this as a percentage the percent of people who have Crypto in thier snake collections has to be minimal. If someone says I knew a guy who had it once 10 years ago...that means nothing to me. This industry can be pretty cut throat and if this stuff was floating around commonly in collections of people selling snakes their names would mud in half a minute. Besides your post was titled self diagnosing.....it is a fact the way most people find out thier snake has it is when it is dead. Sad but true. Not everyone will fork out the cash for a vet, I have no pity for them. The way your post came off to me gives the impression that if you go to a huge show like Daytona and buy something you're asking for trouble. This is not true, and it does not matter much how many people handled the snake before you bought it. Do you think all the snakes out in nature have cooties? Do you not think guys whose main income is snakes keep thier animals in optimum health? Crypto and IBD scare the hell out of people and most people apply the husbandry to keep thier animals in tip top shape. It is the slackers that usually end up ruining the snakes health by not caring for it properly. When someone gets shafted and buys a sick snake it is front page news. We hear about it all the time and those sellers disappear into the woodwork. Snakes are tough, especially the Kings we discuss on this forum. Lousy husbandry is the number one cause of death, I would take that to the bank. Tom Stevens

What you missed was my point that if you look into things[especially newbies] you are going to THINK you have found this n that.
That kind of goes with what I was saying though. People try to look at their sick animals and figure out what the problem is on their own when they're not even well-versed in reptile health. So you have people claiming their snake died of crypto or whatever disease they've heard about through the grapevine when they never had a vet confirm it.

Do you think all the snakes out in nature have cooties?
No, I don't. Cooties are Pediculus humanus which is a type of louse that infects humans. Do I think all snakes in nature have parasites though? Yeah, I'm pretty sure most do. In fact, it's a sign of health. Just about all prey in the wild act as intermediate hosts for various parasites. If you found a completely parasite-free predator living in the wild, it probably means it's not getting a sufficient diet.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

Ok well my collection, or atleast 1/4 of it had been hit with crypto from late 04 until the summer of 05 when I managed to get rid of it. It caused the deaths of alot of my snakes, and every snake had the same exact symptoms(swelling in the lower body and multiple regurges).

Now of course, this is only speculation. As no snakes where ever taken to a vet nor forked over for a necropsy. Although I did talk to about a dozen people that have had crypto in their collections... And said on several occasions what I had must have been crypto.

As far as I'm concerned, it was crypto... From the info I could find about crypto, it described my snakes down to a T.

You are welcome to any of the snakes I had that "died of crypto". I've got a bag of them in a freezer.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

How can anyone draw positive conclusions without cutting open the body though? It could have been anything.

Last year I had a corn snake regurge and refuse meals. The corn had a slight midbody swelling as well. Her necropsy revealed lungworms, hookworms, and strongyloides. Had I not quarantined, this could have spread throughout my collection the same way crypto would have, but crypto wasn't the culprit in this case. (The lungworms were what ultimately killed her, by the way. They basically plugged up her trachea.)

Performing necropsies on your animals at this point is useless because freezing damages tissue. But thanks for the invitation.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

I think people should more often turn to vet necropsies. I recommend having the FIRST snake that dies tested, not the second or tenth. Be proactive.

I bought a small group of snakes years ago that arrived with unsettling symptoms and were vet-diagnosed with crypto. They were put down before leaving quarantine. The troubles with crypto is that it can be present but not identifiable when a snake is not "shedding" the disease (I'm speaking as a lay person here, not a vet--i don't even play one on TV); it can be fatal; it's contagious. So once you've got it, it can take a lot of testing and re-testing before other animals in the collection can be declared "clean".

My conversations with one of the country's approximately 100 reptile-certified vets (not sure of the correct designation, sorry) convinced me there's a LOT of crypto out there--that if snakes at expos or in collections were selected at random and tested, the number of "hits" would be dismaying. Carriers can transmit the disease without showing the effects of it. And I know of people who have knowingly sold animals out of a collection they knew harbored crypto. Euqally dismaying.

I had a die-off of hondurans years ago, one not related to crypto; it can and will happen in collecitons of well-maintained animals. The vet couldn't find the culprit but an anti-bacterial treatment stopped the die-off literally in a day. I used a treatment another vet had used on his own animals for the same reason and with the same success. "Bugs" in the most general sense CAN get out of control in otherwise healthy populations.

I'd encourage people to test and treat accordingly.

imho.

terry

It's why I do lenghty quarantines even if I know the seller well. It's better to have that as a protocol for EVERY new snake regardless of who it comes from than to kick yourself later and repeatedly for losing animals you worked so hard at raising. No dispespect to any friends, but an "oops" rings hollow if the worst happens. and as has been mentioned ,it's not just Crypto but a possible host of other things. You can't live your life paranoid but simple precautions go a long way.