Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Stopped into a small reptile store yesterday, had never heard of the place, just sort of saw it while running errands - and to my dismay found the the conditions to be appalling. (to the point of a dead lizard in one of the cages.) I'll spare the rest of the details, for your sake. I know I can't "save them all" but there is one that I can't get out of my head...a "peachthroat monitor" (may be mislabled, I would have to get a closer look) in very bad shape for sale...on display with no heat lamp, no substrate, screened enclosure, just sort of laying there on the bottom. Skin and bones. And a little post-it-note saying "ate 12/3" (6 days ago?)
What would any of you do? Purchasing an animal from a place like this only helps keep them in buisness, however I'm thinking of going back anyway just to buy it and get it the hell out of there. I think at this point it may be too late, but I have a good reptile vet, knowledge of monitor care, and I can't get this out of my head!

Imports of these are in bad shape and many die. They are loaded with lots af deadlt parasites...you might be waisting your money. But if you hold it and it at least opens its eyes and puts up a little fight??? Then go for it, good luck!!!!

While I am not disagreeing with you, in that these animals often come in with parasites(many/most of which were most likely acquired in the exporters confines, and not in the wild), I will disagree in the level of severity that parasites pose on the well being of importer monitors. I think that parasites are one of these 'reptile myths' that so many people are lured into believing, because it "makes sense"..('parasites sounds right.. besides, what else could there be to blame? I can't think of anything else....')

It is all too often that misinformed keepers, dealers, and yes, even vets, misdiagnose a skinny animal which is rapidly losing weight as a parasite-infested animal which is being 'eaten alive' on the inside.. Because of the wild origin of these animals, people are so quick to jump to the conclusion and blame parasites for the animal's demise. While parasites do not help the situation in any way, they are not the the underlying cause(ultimate causation) for the problems we see with imported wild caught monitors.

I would have to say that virtually every imported wild caught monitor comes in in some state of dehydration, whether it be minimal and less noticeable, or quite evident(bag of skin and bones). So many people fail to address this problem as being attributed to dehydration, as most keepers, dealers, and even many vets, fail to understand the physiology of these animals, and what they need to live a healthy life.

So instead of attacking the problem at hand(dehydration), they erroneously pump the animal full of medicines(which are nothing more than poisons/toxins- which can't be too good for the animal); many times at which the animal was never tested for parasitic infection to begin with, as if these people were so sure of themselves that the problem was caused by parasites.n Therefore, these people go through ridiculous lengths and measures, and dosages, of such treatments- working further and further away from the problem; never addressing the underlying problem in the first place.

We also see these same erroneous practices and measures carried out in other wild caught reptiles in this hobby- snakes, uromastyx, agamids, iguanids, etc, even with captive bred individuals!!(parasites in a captive bred leopard gecko!! highly unlikely...).

The point of my post, is that it is all too often that keepers, dealers, and even vets fall under the 'spell' or 'myth' that parasites are the cause to all the problems and deaths that we see with wild caught specimens. While parasites may very well be capable of overpowering the body of an animal that is already weakened(dehydration, et al), I think that if people would look more towards the ultimate causation(dehydration) of the problems that we see with sick or dying wild caught monitors, they would then see the importance and neccesity of such vital resources as WATER, and the lack of importance of such things as metronidazol or fenbendazol(the "conventional" approach)..

Parasites aren't the big problem here, it is dehydration... If more people understood the importance of hydration, we would not see the same alarmingly high death rates that we currently see in wild caught herps. Put down the syring, and fix the problem at hand...

Cheers,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Parasites can be a problem because the animal is in a severe compromised state. And worming them does often improve their condition temporarily.

The catch-22 is wormers are very bad in compromised animals, and healthy animals don't need them.

I do agree that dehydration is a big problem, but fixing that is kind of like fixing an oil pressure problem in a motor, it's better and incredibly important, but other damage has probably occurred because of the original condition. Unfortunately monitors can't be rebuilt like motors.

You will never see dehydration addressed like the shotgun'n of wormers in the reptile industry. The main reason is, dehydration takes a constant effort and alot aren't in a recoverable state, worming will often cause the animal to improve very quickly (albeit for a short period of time before they crash). So panacur the monitor, it looks better in a week, sell it, and move on to the next animal. There is obviously very few people who are willing to spend more money to get healthy animals. This industry is mostly supported by impulse buys. I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but we must remember most of us started with an impulse buy (or catch) when we were kids.

Oops, I guess that was more than one thing.

--Robert

I do question what is more important however. Whether it be worming the animal to improve its immune/organ systems, or rehydrating the animal first to strengthen the animal's systems. I for one feel that hydrating an animal that is afflicted with internal parasites is more important than dosing it with medications. Such medications are only indirectly beneficial to the animal itself, they only affect the parasites within; whereas water/hydration directly affects the animal's health and physiological processes. A lizard can survive with parasites(after all, parasites are not designed to kill the host), however conspecifically, a lizard cannot survive without adequate water levels within the body.

I think that there is no question that a comprimised system will open itself up to a harsher 'attack' by parasites, however I tend to question how many of these sick and skinny animals are in fact afflicted by parasitic infestations to begin with. Most claims of parasite infestations are unsubstantiated, as most people dosing their animals for such an infestation have never had tests done to confirm such an infection.

I suppose the original point of my post above, was to say that many people mistake a skinny, severely dehydrated lizard, for an animal that is teeming with parasites. I have acclimated many freshly WC tree monitors which were originally nothing but skin and bones- a couple of breaths away from death, that were tested for parasites several times(I was skeptical at the preliminary results), only to come up negative. I have seen this in other herps as well, where skinny, crusty, walking skeletons, that people could have sworn were teeming and infested with parasites, ended up not having any to begin with, or any significant, or jeopardizing parasite load.

When people see a skinny lizard, with its hip bones protruding, no fat or leanness to the musculature, most keepers are so quick to jump out and claim/assume that it is parasites, and are usually overlooking the real problem that is dehydration.

Of course parasites may and do become a problem in many cases, however I think that of all the claims of "parasite infestations" which afflict wc herps in captivity, most of the problems experienced are issues with dehydration, and not parasites..

Cheers Robert,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

I think everyone has made great points and all of you are right. So just consider parisites and dehydration both equally important then add the proper humidity and heat requirements of the peach throat and we have a healthy lizard.
I was told by the original person he/she had a background in reptile keeping so figured it was needles to give him/her a class but to inform him/her that these have a reputation for having a parasite problem, and stated due to importers claiming to be more affected by them than your average lizard. I hope that anyone with a skinny lizard has the first thought of rehydrating.
I have tried to save many lizards in the past and have found when they are weak and unable to open their eyes, most of the time it is too late unless you force feed. Then still at that a high chance of death.

Force feeding a monitor(or any reptile for that matter) is quite possibly one of the worst things you can do for an extremely skinny, dehydrated, and close to death animal. Reptiles are not like us mammals, and can go long periods without food with little or no repercussions.

This animal, even if it was able to eat on its own, would strategically choose not to feed, as in its weakened state, food would only make matters worse-as the digestive system(among other organ systems) is comprimised and would not be able to carry out its duty effectively.

Feeding shouldn't even be considered with animals in such poor shape. Get the animal hydrated and responsive, then offer food later on, once the animal's condition has improved. Surely worrying about getting food into its stomach when the animal is dying is the wrong approach to have.

I would also have to disagree with you in that hydration and parasite elimination should be treated as 'equals', as I have pointed out in my previous posts. Reptiles can and do live with parasites, but reptiles cannot live without proper water concentrations within the body... Which would be more imperative to the survival of a reptiles? Something that a reptile needs, or eliminating something that a reptile can live with?
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Treemonitors.com

I would have to say you are half right on force feeding. I never have force fed solid food to any non-eating reptile. I have force fed electrolytes/vitamin mix with some good results. Also including panacure to the mix. I use force feeding loosely as I forced the mouth open but did not force food down the throat.
Some medications are hard on weak animals so I can see a point there.
As far as parasites go I have to disagree with you. Most reptiles immune systems never get as weak as they do under importing conditions. Therefore their body has not adapted to this. Furthermore most imported animals are exposed to new parasites at holding facilities that they never have had the opportunity to develop a resistance to in the wild.

I think Roberts post is excellent, but may I add something I feel is missed or misled here. And thats the immune system.

First, the immune system if compromised the second the monitor is captured. Being captured causes extreme stress, which effects the immune system.

From that point on, the immune system takes a beating. From the stress of capture to the stress of being tied up(very common with indo monitors) to being placed with all sorts of other monitors and reptiles in holding cages, to not having proper temps. And yes, these holding cages rarely include the ability to maintain proper hydration.

Then consider, the average captive temperature regime does not include the temps or conditions necessary to "build or strengthen" the immune system.

For instance, I pay little attention to common captive disease. I do pay lots of attention to supporting a captive monitors immune system.

As this is a huge problem with normal captive care, its an even larger problem with a WC individuals.

So yes, you can go back and forth about hydration, parasites, disease, etc, but without a functioning immune system all that is for nothing. As without fixing the overall problem, fixing the little problems is of no benefit.

In my opinion, hydration and supporting the immune system is of prime and first consideration with new acquisitions, CB or otherwise. Then follow by addressing the rest. Cheers FR

As hard as it is, walk away. If you buy it, they have money to get a couple more.

I haven't found vets to be all that great for very sick monitors, alot of the treatments are very harsh, and can be the last straw with an already compromised lizard. At this point, probably the best thing a vet could do is to euthanize it.

Even if the stars and planets align, and you manage to get the monitor back on the straight and narrow, I'll bet you money it doesn't last two years. I haven't found this species to really ever recover from this kind of state, kidney and liver failure is imminent (IMO), it just takes some time. I'm sure some people will say that a year is worth it, but is that from the person's or the lizard's perspective? If it's an older animal, if it recovers, it will almost assuredly live it's days in sheer terror. It can take months to years (if it happens) to get adult jobis acclimated. But that's just my opinion.

--Robert

Had I not actually seen it, I would have given the same advice. You are right on all accounts, but it's so hard to hear... thanks for the voice of reason.
On the other hand (in my idealistic world) any chance is better than none...man, I wish I had never gone in there in the first place.
T

While it is difficult to see any animal in the fairly common "pet shop" conditions, I also agree that you have to let it there. By purchasing it you are only validating the poor care the animal received and allowing the pet shop to just replace it with another animal they will not care for properly. Your "sympathy" purchase is still a sale to them, regardless of why you purchased the animal. I used to get into all kinds of confrontations when I went to a local pet shop. The reptiles received absolutely the worst care. I reported them to the Humane Society (big joke, they were not furry and warm, so who cared) and actually bullied them into redoing cages while I stood there and brought items from the shelves to create a better environment for the poor things. Finally, about a year ago, they quit selling reptiles. Hooray! Just a side note, I never bought anything from that pet shop. I just went there to be a pain the the a@#. I don't know if I saved any of the animals, but at least they are not torturing any more reptiles with their substandard care. Good luck.

Pam
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2.3 varanus acanthurus brachyurus (Dorado, Oro, Dora, Freckles & Amarillo)
1.1 varanus acanthurus acanthurus (Tabasco & Sprite)
1.1 u. macfadyeni (Amani & Abeba) RIP Ayana
1.2 u. ornata (Husani, Zari, & Bintu)
1.1 u. ocellata (Zuhri & Ashai)
0.1.2 u. a. aegypticus (Zahra Urbi, Halima & Sagira)
1.1 hyla chrysoscelis (Pudge & Squirt)

by purchasing such an animal, or ANY item at that store, you are only empowering them to pursue what is a proven sales technique, where sick and deathly animals cue a stronger "buy me" response than healthy "happy" animals. check out the FAQ linked below, i have commented more in depth on this exact subject.

by buying such an animal, the only person, animal or thing you are supporting is the owner of the store : )
PE FAQ on Reptile Rescues

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Had no idea. That would have NEVER in a million years crossed my mind, though it makes perfect sense. Moral: stick with the "good guys", right? BTW - bought a tempgun from you guys a while ago. Awsome gadget.
T

Robyn,

I generally have a very poor attitude towards most of the pet trade because of this kind of behavior. It is nice to know that there is someone that cares about the animals and actually lets the dirty little trade secrets out.

Michael

I rescued a baby ornate monitor earlier this year from a subpar shop. The shop was not a good one, but it was the best one in that town. Someone had brought the monitor in on trade for something else the previouse day. It was in good shape considering it was in a cricket keeper with no heat.

I brought it home and kept it for a few months to make sure it was active and healthy. I then found someone that wanted to raise it and give it a good home. I went back to that shop a few weeks later and found thay had got in a timor, water monitor, tegus, and savannas. None of them had proper heat, but the housing for most was not too bad (for a pet shop). I wished I had not supported them, but I am glad I "rescued" the ornate.

I try to support people on these internet forums that I respect, a couple of local shops where I have come to know the owners, and some of the vendors that come to the local exotic shows.
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Ed