Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know that many of the breeders lament about the lack of genetic material so I was thinking...

While strange, I agree. Could you ever see a chance in the future where a female Indigo could be vetted by a doctor of F&Gs choice and placed in a one way entrance box in a known wild males area allowing a male Dry to enter, breed your female and be on his merry way but allowing you fresh bloodlines?

For a high enough Fee to make it worth F&G to provide a biologist to oversee the activity and perhaps their own personnel to monitor I would think the main problem/concern would be assurances that the captive female Dry could not contaminate the the health of the wild population by carrying some unkown problem. I can easily believe some of you are serious enough about your endeavours to pay a good price to see that happen. What do you think?

I guess you could also take your female dry out for some excercise and genuine locality pictures around breeding time but that sounds troublesome on a lot of levels and I'm not sure if it would even be legal LOL.

then there is the problem of introducing something to the wild population that the captive animal is already resistant to... it was a good idea.
~JQ
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"who knows". Edgar ~ Skepticism Inc.

The potential for introduction of pathogens into a wild population, via contact of a captive specimen, would prevent G&F from allowing such. This was a lesson learned the hard way, when captive produced Gopherus agassizii (desert tortoises) were released into declining wild populations, to bolster their numbers.
I believe the key to introducing greater genetic diversity into the captive gene pool would involve the development of a closer working relationship between the private sector and zoological / educational entities, as WC D. couperi, confiscated from poachers by G&F, are often donated to zoological and educational institutions, some of which are willing to work with the private sector in the way of breeding loans and bloodline exchanges.
The development and maintenance of a D. couperi stud-book would be of benefit as well, as would DNA analysis, pending both sides would be willing to participate and contribute material and data…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Hello Jeff,

Classes must have started up again haven’t seen you on for some time.

Take care…

The semester is actually ending, which is much busier than the beginning! ;0)

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Jeff is right on the $. Until we as a community quit producing unfit morphs and hybrids etc., we will lack credibility as a partner in ESA recovery efforts. All this talk is really fighting over crumbs unless serious efforts to establish critical habitats are made. Where are we to release these captive bred animals that do not already have a stable population? Or shall it be like stocked trout, put and take? USFWS has a colorful and diverse history with repatriation efforts, a few successes and many failures. Using falconers as a model community to achieve goals may be a good idea, but almost everyone likes falcons, yet many are prejudice and/or just don't care about the fate of a reptile...no matter how much the "Dry community" may admire it. Protecting/establishing critical habitat seems like the best bang for the buck, and maybe preserving/creating Tortoise/Indigo mitigation habitat is the best we can hope for.

The problems are lack of organization. The Dry comunity has been loosing ground. They due to their lack of organization will continue to loose ground unless something changes. Without organization there is no voice.

Do you realy think they know how to breed Drys. I am sure they could use tips if nothing else besides it is a large undertaking and pooled resources could help. By organizing you could inforce ethics and have a voice that could be heard.

I seem to remember this idea having been bounced around for quite some time now...I lurk quite a bit and I thought that Oldherper and Shadindigo were working on some such project...Do you know if anything ever came of that?
My particular conundrum is that I'm trying to figure out just how many "different" pure lineages of erebennus there are floating around out there so that I can line up some unrelated hatchlings to go with the unrelated pair that I already have.
One other question: I know that USFWS will issue an "incidental take" permit to developers who have deep enough pockets that want to develop areas where protected species live...do you know if there's any prohibition against people collecting from an area that's doomed to be paved anyway? Might they issue a permit to collect in such a case (when they'll be destroyed anyway), or would it be possible to work with a developer to safely remove them? I'm not really in favor of collecting indigos from viable populations, but if they're going to be bulldozed anyway, I don't see how it could hurt.
Robert

All the studbooks in the world aren't going to mean a hill of beans worth of difference if the states are being shut down as far as ability to aquire maintain and breed them. The problem is a core issue.

Perhaps, but the problem is really twofold. I would agree that the rapid spread of anti-reptile legislation is REALLY a problem, especially considering that politicians know less than nothing about reptiles for the most part, but there is nothing immediate that I can do to influence that besides talking up snakes whenever I get the chance and dispelling the cloud of ignorance that hangs over most peoples heads here in the Central Valley. BUT I CAN control the makeup of the relatively small gene pool that I work with, and to that end, it would be quite useful to know how many different lineages of Texans (and Easterns, Blacktails, etc.) that there are in circulation.
Robert

It's an excelent start. A studbook would take some degree of organization and cooperation from the comunity at large.

While I'm not too thrilled with crossing the different subs of Drymarchon (I'm still going to breed a Dry with a Naja), I question the falcon breeders who seem to have no qualms with breeding the subspecies of Peregrin falcons.
How can they justify that?
What do the falconry studbooks look like?
Max
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"I may be crazy, but I can rationalize just about anything."

The fact of the matter is that the Peregrine on the east coast went Extinct. It was known as the Rock Peregrine. The birds used to re-stock the east coast birds were of mixed blood since the nominent race was gone.

Naja mix would be interesting. If you me or someone was to pull it off it may answer the question were all snakes venomous at one time. If they were then my hunch is that the gene is dormant and F1 should produce venomous first breeding in my opinion. 50/50?

A better way would be to supply the Auburn University with animals for re-stocking. Develop a relationship and then at some point ask for some new blood so the animals you are providing can be of a better genetic diversity. The falconry community helped with the recovery of the Peregrine and has been granted access to wild Peregrines. The Indigo community now has a perfect opportunity to do the right thing by putting their money where their mouth is. Now the I just want to be ecologist hype can actually be played out. All of you who don’t need the money well here is your big break to show what you are made of.

Funny enough, but I was just thinking of a "burrow for breeding" before reading this thread. Pathogen transfer just wouldn't allow it. The name has slipt my tongue, but a DVM down south does nothing but look for new virus' in different reptiles. He's finding new stuff all the time.

This also goes for the reintroduction of CB stock, at some point is this a risk worth taking? Do we really want to get to the point of having to entirely replace a population with CB?

We all have heard about buying rainforest land through "what'snamecompany" but sometimes our money will be better spent at home. That's a cooperative effort I"m sure lots of herp societies and the like would contribute too.

Ian

There are large areas that are now void of Indigo, their historic range is large. There are plenty of sites within their former range that are perfect for a restocking effort, power plants military bases active or shut down and the list goes on. The fundamental problem at least until this year was the ability to produce large numbers of Indigo suitable for this effort. By sharing information rather than the, I’m going to get rich with my secrets attitude, we can actually take the lead. Yes the private sector can show um how it’s done.