Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have tried to bring this up before and no one seems to want to talk about it. I am going to try a different approach.

How many of you have really thick females right now??? How many of you had a female look as though she would give you a clutch of eggs but you never got one?? Now have any of you looked at the females that fit this bill closely??

I have noticed in many collections that people have some fat snakes. When I see the snake in question is a female I looked at it a little closer. The reason is I have been noticing the females have very lumpy bellies. The same way their bellies look in the first stages of breeding season. In my opinion this is Ova in the females. When you hold the snakes up in the air with their tails down and just the head and a little of the neck in your hand you can usually see a series of lumps. This is what I am talking about.

Yes a recently fed snake will look similar but I have seen it in brumating snakes as well. So now my question to you guys is this. Look at your fattest females and the females that never laid that clutch of eggs that you where expecting and tell me what you see. I understand your females are brumating and you may not want to disturb them, if that is the case then don't. If you realize that picking them up for a minute is not going to kill them please do it and tell me what you see.

On the same topic I mention at the beginning of this season that I expect eggs in about 30-45 days of breeding and many laughed at that and said, no way. "It takes at least 60 days and sometimes more." Then some people came on and said hey guess what, "I got eggs in 28-40 days." I think Keith got eggs in 32 days or something.

My point is our females may be developing ova at different times. For some the females don't start developing ova until after the first breeding. For others the female already has the ova from the previous season. Leftovers if you will.

This has very little to do with the wild. The difference is the diet that we feed in captivity and the amount we feed. In my mind it makes sense that the female would develop ova when ever the calorie needs are met. If they can produce healthy eggs twice a year from the diet we give them why can't they develop ova 2-3 times a year. In the wild a female carrying ova is wasting precious calories. In captivity we give them calories to spare. I mean come on look at most burmese pythons in the hobby. Obese doesn't even give you the proper meaning of how fat those poor snakes usually are. Our kings carry the weight better but can still be a little to fat for their own good.

When the are overweight why would they need to conserve calories?? Why not use them on ova???

Please, some of you, take the time to look a little closer at your breeder females and also the females that you didn't breed because they where borderline and tell me what you see. Any other thoughts are welcome too but I would really like to hear from people who took the time to look at their snakes first. Palpate them now and see what you find. I spoke to a few people off the forum and after I explained what I was talking about 3 out of 4 people saw it in their animals. So a " yeah I don't get it but I see it" will go a long way.

Later Jason

N/p

Hey Jason, i check out two females in brumation one that has bred before and another that will breed for the very first time this upcoming season, both females have several "lumps" in their abdominal region, the female that has bred prior seems to have a few more,

i check out 2 BIG `04's (that i'm not breeding this upcoming season) the biggest of the two shows lumps as well but less than the female i mentioned above that has not bred b4 the smaller `04 female is round but i don't notice any lumps.

your calorie intake hypothesis seems logical: a female in captivity moves around much less, feeds much more and really has nothing better to do with the extra calories she takes in so early development of ova is ideal (since egg yolk is composed of mostly fat)

may lead one to the question: "so why can't we breed them in the winter" well it's not their mating season and temperatures wouldn't be ideal for "nature incubation"...

I'm keeping detailed records on the two "brumating females" i mentioned above: and i'll be testing a pre-lay embryonic temperature theory i have, hopefully i'll prove out a sure method of producing more females in individual clutches

l8r

~Z

BTW: the guy gave me another b/s story ("oh i was really sick".), He's got one more oportunity... i don't have much time to waste... i'll fil you in soon.
-----
Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

Thanks Zenny. At least one person looked at their snakes. One thing you could note is the number of "lumps" you are seeing and compare that to the number of eggs you get next spring. I kind of forgot what females where what that you mentioned. So if one of the snakes you mentioned that had no "lumps" breeds this coming season compare the time between breeding and laying to the lupmed up females.

Ideally I would like to get two females from the same subspecies, one with and one without "lumps", and breed them on the same day for the first time and see who lays eggs first. If I could do this over and over I could get some interesting info. I may spring for some x-rays or other such tests to see what my females have inside them right now. Hopefully I can find a interested vet who would do it cheap.

Later Jason

P.s. No problem but yeah sooner is better LOL.

first let me say i keep my snakes lean,was told by (joseph lazlo,san antonio zoo) when i was a "newbie",keep'um lean thomas obesity kills,,i can still hear him.
on that note its my opinion female snakes start developing ovum as soon as they can and produce them(ovum)throughout life bred or not, and it seems logical if caloric intake is there they(ovum) will/would grow. now if the ovum continue to grow i beleive this is what triggers the pheremones to kick in and successfull breedings to occur however ive had snakes that i thought for sure would produce and didnt and ive had snakes i didnt think would go drop huge clutches,go figure? i beleive its several factors suitable/adequate mate,housing temp.gradients,hides,security,nesting spots,etc,
timing i beleive also has alot to do w/success. not only with introductions but with frequency of food as well as security,,,,
cool topic hope ya find your answer,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Thanks Thomas
Take a look at you females anyway and you may be surprised. I have some very lean females that show what I am talking about. One is a female corn that will be 18 months this coming season and she seems to have ova already formed. What kills me on this subject is our native pit vipers are known to do this but when you bring it up in colubrids people go into a weird state of denial. I appreciate the open minded attitude you have.

I also think that some of the egg bound females that are surgically saved may have been just fine without intervention. That would be a big kick in the pants to some to find out that the $200-300 spent on surgery was not only wasted but you took out next seasons babies. If the ova don't harden there might not be a problem.

By the way, the breeding end of it and the other stuff you mentioned like timing and housing and suitable mate is kind of besides the point. that is springtime stuff for later... but in that vein how long do you expect between breeding and egg laying??

Later Jason

By the way, the breeding end of it and the other stuff you mentioned like timing and housing and suitable mate is kind of besides the point. that is springtime stuff for later... but in that vein how long do you expect between breeding and egg laying?? ,,,,,,,,,,,, i usally expect eggs in about a month after breedings with kings but ive had some go 60 days with 2sheds between breeding and laying!not the norm but it does happen,though im not sure the time period may be as simple as a nesting/laying spot/box im gonna try some nesting technics(via FR) this year and see if it effects any timelines in laying,
great subject,,,,,,,thomas

I agree with that statement 100% but that is not the popular opinion on here. In a perfect situation I believe it is 90 days from fertilization to hatching. In boas that is also the ideal time line to birth but you here all sorts of different ideas.

Later Jason