Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone know if there is any ESA or CITES restrictions on Gray's Monitors? I've seen them offered from time to time, and want to know if they are free to be bought and sold interstate? Anyone have any info on them regarding that? From everything I've seen so far, they are just a CITES II animal, but just want to make sure. Thanks in advance.

Barry

I had always assumed them to be under Appendix I due to their limited range, but apparently they are indeed under Appendix II.

Good luck

www.cites.org

If you have any question about the legality of any monitor, simply give a call to fish and wildlife. You do not have to name, names or tell them who is offering what, just ask if that species is legal or not in your state. They have to give you an answer, its the law. They will also lead you to other agencies if necessary. If you have question, ask for an answer in writing. But only to the person who answered you on the phone. Each individual agent has their own interpitation. So pick one you like and get it in writing if you have too.

Normally with CITIES 2 reptiles I would not think its necessary to get it in writing, but with this species I would, as they have blocked import in the past. So there will be some question as to how legal they are. Which means, they like to mess with species they have control over.

Consider, its only their opinion that counts, so ask them.

On a side note, in the old days, I bought this and that monitor and all these fine folks, said this and that as to how legal it was, but I did not go by what they said, I simply called USFWS. Good luck and I hope they are legal. FR

Frank actually gives some very good advice here, especially when it comes to V. olivaceus! The Philippines does not allow the export of V. olivaceus; it is illegal to export it, but this has never stopped the pet trade, which exported the first albino Burmese Pythons hatchlings (after stealing the adults from the zoos and breeding them) illegally to the US from Thailand. I have also seen V. salvator komaini on the US market in classified ads, those are also illegal to export from Thailand (along with all Varanus species found here). I would be very interested in seeing where those originated from! The examples could go on and on from other countries that prohibit the export of their wildlife!

Basically, if there is a will, there is a way. There are a great number of unscrupulous zoos that will make up false documentation claiming they are the progeny from zoo kept specimens (the only documented breeding of this species was 10 years ago or so) or Japan, which is a destination of many smuggled illegal animals, is also a great source of false documentation, where animals are later sent to the US or the EU. The point is if it appears legal, if it is researched, it probably actually is not. You have to be very careful! I am sure the V. olivaceus I have seen in the past were illegally brought in. They are probably now in the US or the EU now.

Cheers,

Michael

People like mrcota, are prejudiced about the history of an animal, that may or may not reflect what FW is thinking or doing.

Consider, he is saying legal this and illegal that. He can say that, but unfortunately, its only his opinion and his opinion is not of any concern. You see, only a judge can say, what is legal and illegal. Not mrcota.

So simply call the only party that is responible and if they say their fine, then go for it. If not, you have saved yourself some grief. Let us know that the results are. I would be interested. Thanks FR

Prejudice of the history of the animal? I would call it protective of the species. You know, maybe you don’t or maybe you just do not care that Varanus olivaceus should be CITES I. The reason it is not under CITES I protection is unclear, there are certainly other species less worthy of this status than V. olivaceus, but probably is a result of not enough being known about this species; however, its rarity and limited distribution should be enough justification. Maybe it is simply because the hide of V. olivaceus is not traded. Anyone that really knows about CITES knows that it is terribly flawed and is more concerned about being a commodity manager of commercial assets than something to actually assist the plight of endangered animals and plants.

This “whatever you can get away with” attitude epitomizes what is so wrong with the pet trade! The acquiring of animals of questionable legal origin is unethical, but then I am addressing a problem in a trade that has no ethical code and is perfectly happy with unscrupulous transactions as long as they can obtain what they want and make money. The larger US importers’ dealings are above board, at least from what I have seen; they have to be because they are under closer observation because of their large volume; they are sure to be caught. It is all the numerous medium and small size operations which you will usually see this behavior from, because they are not under such close observation; they can get away with it.

Legality is only part of the overall equation. Yes, questionable legality is my opinion, but it is a statement that carries the ethical burden of these questions:
1) How did this V. olivaceus leave the Philippines? Legally or illegally?
2) What is its history?
Again, I am addressing an industry that has no ethical code or moral foundation nor are they interested in such; it would cost them what they want and the money they will make off of it.

As to the original post, what is a person that has to ask these questions on any forum doing trying to acquire a Varanus olivaceus in the first place?!? They obviously do not have a deep knowledge (or even a minimal knowledge) of this species. What a shame it would be for someone like this to have his hands on such a rare creature as this and you, FR, are pushing him in the direction to acquire it! What are the chances of it surviving or even doing well in the care of someone like this?

Like all posts that may offend someone, even though the truth is revealed, this post will probably be deleted. This is shameful, because this IS about the monitors and is completely monitor related. I have seen posts deleted that tell some hard facts that some do not want to see or have other people see. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Cheers,

Michael

His question has nothing to do with you emotional response. Or whether they need protection or not. Or deserve protection or not. Or whether any type of listing with stop the trees from falling, or not.

My suggestion is in response to his question. period. Sir, that is why its best to ask FW, because asking you gets charged emotional wrong off topic answers. FR

They are supposed to be very endangered, but yet there is a new housing development or a stripmall or something going up in a location that has tons and tons of bog turtles all through the field and especially in the muddy construction vehicle tracks.
Im sure the wetlands survey or whatever was disregarded in this case.
Of course I see fish and boat commission with the absolute worst field guides ever trying to id native species at reptile shows, one spent 25 minutes trying to id a black ratsnake on a table to a Petersons field guide picture once, I guess he determined it to be a different species.

Hi Michael,
I totally agree with you on the practices of some zoos and zoo keepers = and this is not only a Thailand/S.E. Asia things, and does/did apply to some USA zoos that also did this in the past...with unscrupilous zoo keepers/personel eager for their own monetary and 'collections'.

Why fr would say you are predudice again the 'history of the species' makes no sense or applies to the question - although V. olivaceus is protected in Philippines as Endangered, they are registered as Appendix II on CITES....and such animals brought into the USA = awhile ago a pair came in, and reside in Southern California last I heard were brought in by a single person, who was interested in selling them for awhile...I guess they are for sale again...

markb

Hi Mark,

Sorry if I was not clear, the zoos here under the Thai Zoological Organization, are very straight forward and abide by the letter of the law. There was a very rare species here that I wanted to help them acquire, but they were not be able to due to its protected status. I do not have any knowledge of other zoos in the region, but the ones that I have heard about are actually not in this region. I am sure this kind of unscrupulous behavior happens in many places, not only in the ones that I have heard about.

Cheers,

Michael

Thanks Mike,
Thanks for the correction - I did misunderstand it.
markb