Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would love to hear the method of incubating that everyone chooses and finds succesful. So many different ways to do it, and sharing of ideas could give us all some new ways to think about.

Nothing original on my part...I just put the eggs in a plastic tub with about 2" of perlite. I drill two tiny holes in the lid. I use less than 1:1 perlite:water by weight, and I think less water is usually desirable, resist the temptation to keep adding water. I use perlite because I can see a few droplets of water and know it's not too dry. I try to keep eggs separate but just put in the mass if they are adhered. I find fertile eggs rarely go bad, and have seen hatchlings come out of sad looking eggs. Put eggs in about 76-84 temps, either let them cool at night or keep stable in incubator, good result either way with durable kingsnake eggs.

I've kept snakes for a long time but last yr was my first attempt at breeding and it was successful (till the very end when we had a heat wave! killer 8 of my babies full term)

any way... i used Terrium Moss to incubate the eggs, all i did was place the moss in a bucket of water ring dry so that it is left moist. i surrounded all the eggs with the moss so that 1/3 of the top of the eggs was visible...

I used a "home-made incubator"

plastic (plexi) cover for the 10gal


(The General Care and Maintenance of Common Kingsnakes: David Perlowin pg.69)

Setup:
1. place the 2 bricks in the tank (position them so the heater can fit btwn the bricks and the shoe box can "sit" on top the bricks.)

6. check once a week, fan, add water if needed to eggs box and 10gal (btw: I incubated my eggs the whole way through and never had to add water once)

Hopefully this will be the result

goodluck

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

It was your method. Toooooooooooooo much water. Reptile eggs are a very keen trait, their ability to absorb humidity is directly related to temperature. That is, the hotter they are, the better they are at absorbing moisture out of the air.

Normally snake eggs(colubrids) want to be dry with a % of humidity. This allows them to take a successfully use lots of heat(actually a wide range of temps)
It also allows them to become really wet(if cold or cooler) and survive. So their natural abilities allow for conditions they normally are exposed to. Your set up exceeds those limits.

Please understand, the quality of different methods are determined by how successful they are, not simply because they are. Its so very easy to hatch colubrid eggs, so I would recomend methods that have lots and lots of room for error. Not methods that if done perfectly, may allow the eggs to hatch. Also, I would think in this day and age. You would not need all that mechanical stuff that increases the percentage of failure.

Not to be mean, but why on earth would you recomend and method that has failed for you? I think you should wait until you have something proven before you show it off. FR

Thanx for you input FR but I'm 100% sure it was the heat because the snakes broke out of their eggs and were just hanging out of the eggs dead!... and this occurred a few days after hatching begun.... my AC died in 100degree weather so I'm not falsely blaming the heat without just cause... i understand what you're saying and i realize the method is not full proof and i realize there are easier methods that yield perfect results... with all the moisture none of the eggs rotted which would be the case with excess water i had in my eggs i hatched out some really BIG babies that are thriving,

Now FR i respect your experience and advice, but please ask me for more information next time before you come to a conclusion, i'd really appreciate it

Thanx

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

No offense, but I still believe its your method and not heat, 100F is not lethal to eggs unless they contain too much moisture(internal pressure)

As the eggs warm up, they absorb water, to a point that the internal pressure will indeed pop the eggs. And yes, leave embryos hanging out.

I am not blaming you, but sir, water???????? + heat= dead eggs. Dry eggs + heat, equals faster hatching.

Just for fun, if what you say is true and your eggs reached 100F. I will have to mention, we have tested eggs to 125F and some survived. We have no problem with temps around 100F plus or minus a few degrees.

I understand you could do your own testing at the expense of the snakes, or you can listen and ask questions from someone whos already done lots of testing.

ok FR, again thank you for your input... when i saw the hatchlings hanging out of the eggs i cut open the ones that were not hatched and i saved two hatchlings so the 125F thingy maybe very possible, but the temperature change was the only difference on that particular day when they eggs hatched prematurely... the other eggs that were cut open which did not "pop" had dead fully developed snakes in them all the dead snakes were about the same size so i know it was the conditions the were under on that day that caused they to die...

Also from the record, i don't do my own testing at the expense of my animals AT ALL... if anything i care for all my snakes as individual pets, not just as breeders or as test subjects... and like i said i respect your experience, i just didn't appreciate the implications

Thanx again and thanx for the pix

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ

Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

And so do I, thats why I brought this up to start with. I also understand, you don't want to hear it. You have set answer in your head and as you said, your 100% sure. But how can you be sure of anything, when your not experienced enough for any certainty what so ever. I will tell you what long term experience will teach you. It will teach you not to be sure of anything, not when its about living animals.

Yes, the hot day caused the eggs to die, but with kerby's(and my) method, it would not have killed them.(this is the point)

Consider, 100F days here, are a relief from the heat. Which means, it occurs here from 35 to 96 days a year. So we "have" to develop methods that can withstand flucuations in temps. For instance, in early spring, we can freeze at night and be in the ninties in the day.

I think the method you posted sucks, and sucks alot. The reason is sucks is, it has a narrow range of success. Which means, failure is very easy. Its not that you cannot hatch snakes with that method. A better question is why use something thats marginal.

I suggest Kerby's method, keep it simple and keep it reliable. Snake eggs are so tolerable, that just squeezing the water out is fine. So, ask him for details or lack of them, hahahahahahaha his method is great because you don't need details.

I wish you all the luck, FR

Your probobly right about having way too much water, but dont hate on his method too badly! I used the ten gallon tank method for several years and I never lost an egg. NOT ONE. The water in the bottom gives great ambient humidity. I have found that extremely high humidity with a drier substrate at around 83 degrees gives the shortest hatching time (49-51 days) as well as larger hatchlings. However you need a MUCH dryer substrate then soaked spagnum. I have used spagnum but only barely moist.

Now I too go with more of the kerby method, but before my heated snake room, the ten gal worked well.

I think your exactly right Frank. Ive for the last 3 years have used Sphagnum Moss and had problems with the eggs swelling due to excess moisture. Do you know what type of problems can be associated with excess moisture (besides death). I was just curious if that could cause defects or smaller hatchlings etc... I switched from vermiculite to Moss because for whatever reason I only could find fine grade Verm which sucked. Im going to use Perelite this season and see how that goes.

Keith

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Dear Keith, problems associated with too much moisture include drowning the embryo in the egg, rupturing/cracking of the egg shell, and smaller than ideal hatchlings. Steve Hammack, a very competent breeder/Zoo keeper, had some evidence to support the lower hatch weights as I recall,and he found better results by keeping humidity less than what many advocate. I think he was working with L.t.andesiana at the time. For me, on the drier side but still adequate moisture works well. I use less than the oft quoted 1:1, but that ratio does work well. A wide range is tolerated by these durable eggs.

Lots of good ideas.

I used to do the water thing with an aquarium heater, then I went to a Big Apple Incubator, and now I just use the ambient air temp of my snake room. I use Tupperware containers with 2 small pin holes and I fill it up with moist vermiculite (don't worry about ratios). Just make sure it is moist/damp and not dripping. Sometimes I spray the sides of the containers if there isn't any condensation, but that is rare. I use my fluctuating snake room temp (mid 70's to mid 80's) and they hatch in about 60-70 days give or take a few on either end.

Lots of ways to do it. Keep it simple.

Kerby...

i moved from Florida to Chicago and thought oh no I got to get a incubator. I looked around and saw that for the number of eggs i would need 2-5 commercial units or one big bad boy that would take up a bunch of space. So i asked around the local herp club and found out the experience guys did what I did in Fl. They used the room temp that allows for variation and had good results. My results where kind of weird this year but I believe that to be from something else.

Keep it simple. Your room temps or temps near the cages should be in the right range of temps for the eggs too.

Later Jason

Here is how I hatch rat snakes (_Elaphe_) and bullsnakes (_Pituophis_). I'll do kings the same way, if I ever get eggs.

Materials needed: Vermiculite (tm) - approximately as fine as coarse sand, available at Earl May Garden Centers. Water. Plastic shoe box, ~12x6x4 inches, top not needed. Plastic sweater box, ~16x12x8 inches, with top. Incubator or warm area in the home. BTW, many things can substitute for the plastic boxes.

1) Fill the shoe box with Vermiculite. If possible, weigh the
Vermiculite. If this is not possible, a shoe box holds approximately 6 ounces (filled to 3/4 inch from the top).

2) Add an equal weight of water to the Vermiculite and mix. 6 ounces of Vermiculite/6 fluid ounces of water. 350 g of Vermiculite/350 ml of water. Proportions are not terribly critical; I've used 25% more water than Vermiculite without a problem.

3) The eggs are often stuck together. Leave them stuck if possible, but they can be peeled apart *gently* if necessary. Bury the eggs in the Vermiculite with the top eggs just showing. Keep the orientation of the eggs the same as when they were laid; in other words don't turn the eggs over.

4) Put ~1/4 inch of water in the bottom of the sweater box and four "legs" to hold the shoe box out of the water. If the shoe box is in the water, water can enter through an existing hole or crack, saturate the Vermiculite, and drown the eggs. Rubber stoppers or bottle caps work very well as legs.

5) Put the topless shoe box on the legs in the sweater box, and put the lid on the sweater box. The water in the sweater box keeps the atmosphere close to 100% humidity and retards drying of the Vermiculite.

6) Put the sweater box in an incubator or in a warm place in your house. Open the sweater box once or twice a week for fresh air. If the top egg starts to dimple, mix a little water into the Vermiculite.

7) Hatching usually begins 50-75 days after the eggs are laid, though once I hatched fox snake (_Elaphe vulpina_) eggs in 35 days. Remove hatchlings after they have completely emerged from the eggs and are crawling around.

Sounds simple doesn't it? Except, I didn't say anything about mold or incubation temperature.

I don't consider mold a problem. Vermiculite doesn't support mold, and any egg that develops mold is probably already dead. With this setup, I don't even remove the few moldy eggs that I get, partly because moldy eggs are hard to identify when buried in the Vermiculite. The mold doesn't seem to spread to healthy eggs though.

I started hatching eggs when the advice was to put the eggs in a warm place in the house and air conditioning was less common than presently. There was a day/night temperature cycle, which did not seem to hurt the eggs. In fact, in the wild the eggs would have a day/night temperature cycle. So I have kept on with a cycle even after building an incubator (a plywood box with a chick egg incubator thermostat and heat tape). I like a cycle that rises to 90 F (32 C) and drops into the mid 70s F (23-25 C) at night. The cooler temperature at night reduces the embryo's oxygen needs and lets the egg replenish its depleted oxygen supply for the following day.

A constant 82-84 F (29 C) also seems to work. It just shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Paul Hollander