Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a couple of kingsnakes that have something going on here. First a little history.
Both are females, one is a black king, and the other is a speckled king.

The black king I got as a C/B hatchling in '03. She has not grown very much in two years, and refuses to eat anything larger than a small fuzzy. She eats fine, and is fed every 4 to 5 days. Her sheds are all normal, fecal matter is all normal, and no R/I. In all aspects she is a normal healthy snake.

The speckled king is from a good friend of mine, I just got her last month. Her age is unknown as she was W/C. She refuses to eat anything except small to med hoppers, and then only one per feeding, which is every 8 to 10 days. She is also on the small size and was a finicky eater while in my friends care. She sheds fine, fecal matter is normal, and no R/I. Again a healthy snake in all aspects.

Now here is the problem. They both have a swelling in the lower neck area. I first noticed this in the black king around 4 months ago. It has been getting bigger.

The speckled king had a slight swelling when I got her, and it is also increased in size. These two snakes have never been together, I wash my hands between handling any of my snakes, and I never share food items. The swelling is not in the stomach area, but more in the neck region. I have palpated this on both snakes and it is not hard. Semi-soft swelling, and the snakes are not lethargic or act sick in any way.

I have read of a few cases of this, but no explanation has been givin. One snake developed these lumps throughout its body and had to be euthanized. Another has this lump and is still living, although it is a smaller than normal snake.

My question is, has anyone ever encountered this and if so do you know what it is??

Im thinking could possibly be some sort of tumor. I know snakes get cancer, and benign tumors as well. Any insight would be appreciated.

Here are some pics....

The black king...the swelling is not real bad, but noticeable in the lower neck region....

And the speckled. Hers is worse and in the same spot!!

Thanks
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Well I have to say I haven't seen that in any of mine. I do recommend taking at least one of them to the vet. Maybe you could get advice and treat both.
Have you posted on the "Health" (I think) forum??
Here's to the speedy recovery of your animals and be sure to keep us posted.
Maybe someone here can help. I hope so.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

It appears to be swelling of the heart, actually fluid in the membrane around the heart. I think a vet visit is in order, good luck. FR

As I have done some more research and have found what it may be. An enlarged heart. I have found numerous pictures and articles on snakes with enlarged hearts. A congenital disease with no cure, and prognosis is not good. Every snake with this ailment did not make it. In the speckled king, I gently palpated this area and I can indeed feel her heartbeat here, very weird, as I held 4 other of my snakes and felt for a heartbeat. I could not feel it in any other of my snakes. I couldnt feel it in the black king, but she is so small it would be pretty hard to detect. So now I am at a crossroads. Do I continue to feed them smaller meals and let them live as long as they can, or do I just go ahead and put them down?? I guess before I put them down, I could take them to the vet just to be sure. But this swelling is identical to every other picture of a snake with an enlarged heart.

Pretty coincidental that I ended up with 2 snakes having an enlarged heart. But that would explain why neither one will eat a normal size meal and they are smaller than they should be. The black king always looked a little abnormal, her head was just not right, kind of bug eyed as a hatchling, so she may have a little genetic problem to start with. Ahh well, cant win them all!
Thanks again guys for your help!
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

One captive hatched, one wild caught, and both have something thats congenital? That is very very highly unlikely. Consider, both now have a similar history, the same keeper or keepers.

I would guess its a kidney problem developed from longterm dehydration. Or, an infection from a common pathogen allowed by a compromised immue system. Have a vet check it out or not, its your call. Cheers and good luck, FR

Dear Hotshot, I am sorry to hear you are in this situation. I am unfamiliar with this malady, having been lucky to have never seen it, so I am learning from your experience. The fact that 2 snakes have it is stunning, what are the chances? If you can afford it, it would be good to get a competent reptile Vets opinion/diagnoses on it. For sure you don't want to make the same mistake (if it is based on a husbandry error) again. And it may not be a mistake, maybe just bad luck but it is best to look critically at ourselves as keepers. FR really has a lot of experience in husbandry that vets often don't, so advice the vet of what he said if you go. Good luck and I hope you get some fun back into your hobby soon. At the risk of sounding insensitive, what is the best way to euthanize a snake?

To be on the safe side I will probably take the larger of the two, the speckled, to the vet either this week or next. I am curious as to if my suspicions are correct. Would be nice if I was wrong and it is something that could be cleared up with meds.

The chances of two snakes having the same affliction should be pretty low. I guess I just got the luck of the draw. I dont believe it to be any pathogen, as the two snakes have never been together, have never been in the others enclosure, and the black king has had this slight swelling for a few months. I just got the holbrooki last month, and I noticed the slight swelling the night I got it home and was checking it out. Just didnt give it much thought, until the swelling got alittle bigger and I decided to do some research.

If it were a pathogen, I suspect the other snakes that are near the black king should exhibit the same symptoms. I have looked the other snakes over very closely, and they appear healthy with no swelling at all.

As far as getting fun back into the hobby, this is just one of those things that happens, and you just have to take the good with the bad. One of lifes little experiences that you chalk up for future references!!

As far as euthanizing a snake, that topic has been touched on, and was a heated debate. I will tell you though, that freezing is not how I will do it, and will leave it at that.

So once I take a trip to the vet, I will let you all know what, if anything, was found.
Thanks
Brian

>>Dear Hotshot, I am sorry to hear you are in this situation. I am unfamiliar with this malady, having been lucky to have never seen it, so I am learning from your experience. The fact that 2 snakes have it is stunning, what are the chances? If you can afford it, it would be good to get a competent reptile Vets opinion/diagnoses on it. For sure you don't want to make the same mistake (if it is based on a husbandry error) again. And it may not be a mistake, maybe just bad luck but it is best to look critically at ourselves as keepers. FR really has a lot of experience in husbandry that vets often don't, so advice the vet of what he said if you go. Good luck and I hope you get some fun back into your hobby soon. At the risk of sounding insensitive, what is the best way to euthanize a snake?

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Hotshot, I'm not a "long-time snake keeper" by any stretch of the imagination, but I do hope the best for your snakes and for you in the decision that you have to make regarding them. I hope that you do take them to the vet to verify the problem... and while I'm sure that you've done your research, etc. and know infinitely more than I do, in this instance, I hope you're completely WRONG and that both you and the vet can cure whatever ails your snakes. Good luck!
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3 Corns - Squall (Normal), Freya (Normal), Peyton (Amel)
2 Florida Kings - Thor & Lilith
1 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake - MacLeod

Several years ago I found an identical lump in a subadult dumerils boa. I took him to the vet (AMC in New York)and they extracted nearly 40ml of fluid from between the pericardium and the heart!!! They kept him for two days and repeated the procedure. They could not give me a solid reason but the condition has not come back and the snake is now a vibrant healthy adult. In doing my own research I have found a hypothesis that it could have to do with toxicity. Several other cases happened after snakes were put into freshly built cages. My boas case ocured about a week after being put into a new cage. It is possible that I did not let the 2 part epoxy offgas enough.

Have your snakes been exposed to any new building materials, cedar or pine, or anything else you can think of?

I would definetely take the snakes to a vet. With so much presure around the heart they are bound to be lethargic and not feed. But it is definetely possible to heal.

good luck and let us know what happens.