Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,
Over the last few years I’ve tried to raise juveniles without pyramiding, with any success so far though. The only species I have bred is Testudo Graeca Graeca. I live in South-eastern Spain, 35 miles from the Mediterranean Coast and about 40 miles north of the natural range of the species I maintain since I was a child. My town is a bit more humid because it is settled in an irrigated area, close to a river, but the difference with it natural range is not very accurate.
Well, let’s get to the point. I’ll talk about the conditions my tortoises (juveniles & hatchlings) are being kept under. Their diet consists of 100% wild weeds and flowers (sonchus tenerrimus, sonchus oleraceus, papaver rhoeas, plantago lanceolata, crepis capillaris, malva sylvestris, sisymbrium irio, lactuca serriola, Convolvulus arvensis, diplotaxis spp, moricandia arvensis…). During the summer months none of them is available, so they are fed on mulberry leaves, grapevine leaves, some sumermarket greens and occasionally opuntia pads (they rarely accept them). I have nothing either against or in favour of commercial foods or supermarket greens. I don’t live in a big city, so I’ve got plenty of food readily available for much of the year, and since it is the cheapest option and more widely recommended by the literature, I will stick to them. I have read lots of literature on the biology of the genus testudo, and most of the food items I offer to them are included in the wild diets or are close relatives of them. I bear in mind that, because of different soil compositions, the mineral content can vary considerably, so I add, twice a week, a vitamins/minerals supplement and calcium carbonate (I know that the latter is not absorbed easily). I also leave cuttlefish bones in their enclosure (they gnaw at them from time to time).
They are housed outdoors all year around (again, I live 40 miles north of their natural range), except for the first winter, during which I keep them indoors for 4 months. Afterwards, they go back outdoors, for the rest of their lives.
This winter, my 2005 hatchlings are following that routine, but I have cut off the food intake, so now, they are fed every other day. I have to add one more component to the equation: for the first time I am using, on a “once every 10 days” basis, a D3-calcium pidolate powder, just during the “indoors stage”(I guess its overall effect, positive or negative, should be unnoticeable, because I use it very sparsely).
The basic setup of my torts is a “tortoise table” under a porch. It is moved almost every week depending on the different position of the sun. For instance, in spring and fall they receive plenty of sun whereas in summertime I tend to avoid the exposure to the sun during the central hours of the day. Anyway, they just take advantage of all the sun in early spring and late fall. The rest of their active season they bask, eat, and look for shelter straightly. The substrate I use is kind of mixture of sand, pine mulch, compost with some flat stones. They have I swallow dish with fresh water they readily drink, and I also soak them regularly, especially in summertime.
The indoors setup (just first winter) is the same table, which loses a lot of heat, but guarantees a lot of ventilation. I don’t mind to waste a bit of money just for 4 months. For lighting purposes I use a 160W Powersun, a couple of 60W spot lamps and a 60W infrared lamp just above the water dish (to encourage drinking). Under the hiding area I built a system of securely protected cable heater, regulated by a thermostat to maintain about 70-80ºF in that area. It might look too much wattage, but the room in a kind of attic and is really chilly. Besides, the table is quite large, so the tortoises can choose among temperatures ranging from 20ºC (68ºC) to 40ºC (104ºF). They have always had substrate available where to dig in, but since two years ago onwards, after reading about the relation between humidity and pyramiding, I am paying special attention to this particular issue. The method I follow, in order to provide them with humid microclimates, is very rudimentary but it has proven effective. I simply soak the curved roofing tiles which are semi-burrowed, and the surrounding area where they are located. I pay a lot of attention to this, and I never let them dry out, in my desperate search for a solution of the problem of pyramiding.
I have to admit that when I first read on this topic two years ago, I felt very enthusiastic; and even more after reading Richard Fife’s and C.S.Wiesner-C.Iben’s articles. But now, I feel again disappointed, as my problem hasn’t been solved. I don’t mean the studies are not valid (who am I to say such a thing?). I saw in this forum I picture of a sulcata raised by Mr. Fife and the results were just outstanding. Besides, the fact that it has been proven with species with so different biology such as G.Carbonaria and G.Sulcata speaks by itself. I have spent a couple of nights reading the old messages regarding this topic and the experience of breeders such as EJ, DanP, cwilder, etc, cannot be refuted, of course not. They’ve got much experience on different species over a very long time and I have just kept one species in my life. I have also read about that population of carbonarias living in an arid island of the Caribbean Sea showing chronic pyramiding…too many coincidences to categorically discard the relation between pyramiding and humidity.
Fortunately, there is a group of biologists in my region who are carrying out lots of studies on the wild populations of my area, and another group in Doñana Park (SW Spain) where there is another small population of Graeca (genetically the same as the ones in the SE). Their studies are published in the last symposium of the general congress of the genus testudo and they have also published several books (in spanish). This provides me with plenty of data of their natural historty. This particular populations both invariably hibernate and aestivate, so their annual feeding cycle is about 4 months a year (scientifically proven).
My point is, I aknowledge the importance of humidity as they a key factor, but I think this is not the most important factor in all the species. At least it is not the case of the species I keep and others such as T.Kleinmanni. Even within the genus testudo there are big differences in pyramidal growth among its members. In Europe, it is widely accepted how easy it is to get smooth carapace marginated tortoises whereas it is considered almost impossible to do so with Egyptians.
My next step in my search of the “holy grail” is:
1. Keep on reducing the food intake. I keep several hatchlings together, so I find easier to feed them as much as they want in a sitting every other day, than monitoring small quantities every day. I friend of mine has done the second option with hatchlings of T. kleinmanni with the best results I have ever seen in this species.
2. Imitate as much I can the annual cycles. Hibernation is quite easy. Aestivation is not so easy to induce so I will reduce the food intake even further. My adults semi-aestivate easily, but not the hatchlings and juveniles.
3. Keep on using humid microclimates. They use them in the wild, they’ve got plenty of advantages.
I don’t want to arise a new discussion on the subject. It has already been done countless times in this forum. I would thank any idea/opinion/advice though. I am not a follower of either the European trends(diet, hibernation, …) nor the American ones (humidity, heat, no-matter-protein)…I JUST WANT SMOOTH CARAPACES , as those I have luckily seen in the wild.
One more thing, I would like to see a picture of an Egyptian juvenile with a really smooth carapace. I have never seen such a thing. I think EJ breeds them since a long time ago. Could you or any other please post a picture of several examples?
Thanks in advance!!!

While humidity is a important to be sure, it is not the only factor in regards to smooth, natural growth. I have always believed that we take often take 'too good' care of our tortoises. We feed them the perfect diet that is, if anything, too rich. Even if we are going out of our way to provide high quality foods that are varied and balanced, I still think we probably feed too much and push growth on our animals.
I really doubt that members of the genus Testudo grow very fast in the wild and this helps explain why you never see 'lumpy' wild tortoises.
I also think that once a tortoise of any species gets to be about half grown, then the potential of pyramiding becomes less likely. For some reason, hatchlings and small juveniles are the most susceptible and this could simply be that they are not that active and do not take in that much food in nature. It might be true that because of their softer, less calcified shell that they show problems faster than would a larger animal.
Of course, I am not suggesting that they should be starved either but somewhere we need to cut back.
I know that in my own case, I am offering large amounts of food to my cherryhead hatchlings nearly every day. They eat like mad and grow very fast---much faster than the normally would. But even if I keep them outside and ridiculously humid, I still get a little pyramiding by their second year--not much, but it is there.
I couldn't help but think when I read your account that your tortoises are being very well cared for. The foods you offer sound great and you husbandry seems flawless. Maybe there is just too much of a good thing?

The main humidity issue is this: in the wild the torts put on carapace growth mainly/only during rainy/humid months, when food is available. Duiring the long hot dry months they are just trying to survive and find some moiser microclimates.

In captivity they put on max growth (in many collections) during hot dry conditions. So they are on an opposite growth/climatic influence cycle. It's not humidity per se, but the fact that they are growing at a fast pace in temp/dryness conditions that in the wild would be no-growth periods.

Fixing this doesn't mean keeping them more humid; it might mean giving them weedier foods during dry months and seeing less growth. Most of us supplement during off-seasons with store-bought greens, which means max. protein in their diets coincides with min. humidity. We just completely screw up their natural growth/nutrition cycles.

This is a unique perspective.

Growth is going to take place as long as the metabolism allows it. That is... as long as there is heat and hydration you are going to get growth.

Ed

>>The main humidity issue is this: in the wild the torts put on carapace growth mainly/only during rainy/humid months, when food is available. Duiring the long hot dry months they are just trying to survive and find some moiser microclimates.
>>
>>In captivity they put on max growth (in many collections) during hot dry conditions. So they are on an opposite growth/climatic influence cycle. It's not humidity per se, but the fact that they are growing at a fast pace in temp/dryness conditions that in the wild would be no-growth periods.
>>
>>Fixing this doesn't mean keeping them more humid; it might mean giving them weedier foods during dry months and seeing less growth. Most of us supplement during off-seasons with store-bought greens, which means max. protein in their diets coincides with min. humidity. We just completely screw up their natural growth/nutrition cycles.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I have read about your point of view in the archives of this forum from 2002 and in the Tortoise trust forum (2001-2002). I know your point perfectly EJ. I also think conditions are important, as I said in my post...that's why I pay special attention to microclimates and humidity.

My opinion is that pyramiding is multifactorial...and the formula is not the same in all the species, and maybe there are still points I we don't know. Can you identify the problem in my juveniles??

I have read you are breeding Kleinmannis since a long time ago, and that you have raised them to adulthood. Can you post or send me pictures of juveniles?? That would spare us a lot conversasion about a subject thorougly discussed before.

My email address is alpelokanelo AT yahoo DOT es (I write it this way because of Spam)

Thanks

actually not so unique - it's just conventional wisdom now among people doing physiological research in chelonians. Heat and hydration may be two of the 3 items needed for growth - the other key one is nutrients. Check out the seasonal growth patterns of wild torts - it is zero for the dry food-poor months of the year. The carapace grows abnormally when they get too much protein, and especially too much protein and calories when their system of laying down shell finds a situation opposite that for which it is evolved.

I get your point. Theoretically true. I agree with you. But all species aren't exactly the same.

Can you show me pictures of captive Egyptians with smooth growth since hatchlings?? A Picture is Worth 1000 Words.

My email address is alpelokanelo AT yahoo DOT es (I write it this way because of Spam)

Thanks everyone!!!

Here are some of my potential successes. I will not know the actual results until they are adults. All of them have unique histories.

The Egyptian is 3 years old. After the first year it developed a bacterial infection which I suspect originated from the Mazuri diet. It has not touched it since. The majority of the growth you see is when it was eating the diet.

The Spider is 4 years old. It loves The Mazuri diet and continues to do so.

The Leopard is one of my first second generation animals. It gets no UV and and a good portion of it's diet is Mazuri. It too loves the stuff.

I have failures and successes but these are special to me for various reasons.

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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

This is just anecdotal but I find it interesting. I have three Redfoots I hatched two years ago. They've be kept in identical conditions and fed an identical diet. Two display no pyramiding one does. Growth in size and weight is also identical.
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Tim Madsen

Nobody cares how much you know,
Until they know how much you care.

This kind of experiment is virtually impossible to quantify.

What I posted is the results of a 'kind of' experiment if you can call it that at all.

What I can say for sure is that I've found if you maintain a tortoise at a good temperature and equally good hydration to facilitate a good metabolism the odds are in your favor that you are going to get good growth or no pyramiding.

On the RFs... do you watch the behavior of the one that is pyramiding to see how it differs from the ones that don't?

>>This is just anecdotal but I find it interesting. I have three Redfoots I hatched two years ago. They've be kept in identical conditions and fed an identical diet. Two display no pyramiding one does. Growth in size and weight is also identical.
>>-----
>>Tim Madsen
>>
>>Nobody cares how much you know,
>>Until they know how much you care.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I have not noticed any different behavior in the one with pyramiding. It eats the same, displays the same amount of activity. Yes this is anecdotal but it has convinced me that there is no convincing theory as to what the cause of pyramiding is.
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Tim Madsen

Nobody cares how much you know,
Until they know how much you care.

I'm convinced temperature is a major factor with hydration being the next in line.

I too have tortoises that are kept together where some display some pyramiding and others in the group do not.

I'm thinking that it is most likely behavioral and that in my case some with the pyramiding I suspect have a lower average body temperature.

There are these microchips that keep a running tab of temperature and can be downloaded to a computer. They run about $100 each... a little rich for my budget right now but one day this is how I'm going to test my theory.

The main thing is to squash the dogma that protein is the cause of pyramiding. It is not that simple and that kind of thinking can do more harm than good when you think of how important protein is. I believe conversations similar to this look like they are beginning to affect a shift in that kind of thinking.

>>I have not noticed any different behavior in the one with pyramiding. It eats the same, displays the same amount of activity. Yes this is anecdotal but it has convinced me that there is no convincing theory as to what the cause of pyramiding is.
>>-----
>>Tim Madsen
>>
>>Nobody cares how much you know,
>>Until they know how much you care.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I wish my Egyptians were this smooth........

That one sure looks great.

Thanks. That's the only one I've hatched out.

>>That one sure looks great.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

As I said, A picture's worth 1000 words...and yor pictures are symply atonishing...I had never seen a captive egyptian with such a smooth carapace.

Thank you very much indeed Ed!!

Marcos M. de San Pedro

I don't know if you remember my long post on this thread. Just one more thing. What recomendation would you give me? I feed then on grasses, but I pay attention to humid microclimates...about heat, I live in their natural range.

I would also like to know whether I can use your pictures and some of your comments I have gathered in an article on the topic I am planning to write for a Spanish web site.

Thanks in advance!!
Marcos

Just because you live in their natural range it does not mean that you don't need supplemental heat.

In the wild they have a huge choice of hides and we really don't know all the factors that play into their choice so it is better to give them as much choice as possible.

Feel free to use that material as long as there is proper credit.

>>I don't know if you remember my long post on this thread. Just one more thing. What recomendation would you give me? I feed then on grasses, but I pay attention to humid microclimates...about heat, I live in their natural range.
>>
>>I would also like to know whether I can use your pictures and some of your comments I have gathered in an article on the topic I am planning to write for a Spanish web site.
>>
>>Thanks in advance!!
>>Marcos
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Last question: what about thouse leopards? How do they metabolise calcium without UVB? Do you give them D3 Supplements??

Of course I will say who's the author of the pictures!!!

Thank you very much!!!
Marcos

I'm guessing that the Mazuri tortoise diet has sufficient vitamin D to metabolise the calcium.

>>Last question: what about thouse leopards? How do they metabolise calcium without UVB? Do you give them D3 Supplements??
>>
>>Of course I will say who's the author of the pictures!!!
>>
>>Thank you very much!!!
>>Marcos
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You mention 'for which it has evolved'. There are species that have a range the extends from a cold to warm range. Those that occur in the cold range have a cyclic growth period and those of the same spcies have a slowdown but not a complete stop of growth. This indicates to me that growth is almost entirely dependent on the environment.

I'll have to concede that without nutrition you can't have growth but I'm kind of contradicting myself here... I've said that in the past but without proper heat and hydration you can feed a tortoise all day long and get zero growth.

As to rapid growth... if the conditionsfor growth match the intake you are going to ge 'normal' growth regardless of the rate. Many keepers have proven this.

The key is balance and that balance is a dynamic process.

Ed

>>actually not so unique - it's just conventional wisdom now among people doing physiological research in chelonians. Heat and hydration may be two of the 3 items needed for growth - the other key one is nutrients. Check out the seasonal growth patterns of wild torts - it is zero for the dry food-poor months of the year. The carapace grows abnormally when they get too much protein, and especially too much protein and calories when their system of laying down shell finds a situation opposite that for which it is evolved.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I don't know if I would call a smooth carapace the only indicator of normal growth EJ.
Some tortoises that have grown very fast have unusually wide growth rings that you don't see in wild tortoises. If you look at WC redfoots they always have tight, evenly spaced and uniform growth rings. But once in a captive environment and cleaned of parasites their growth rings start to become widely spaced. In fact, you can often look at an animal and tell at what size it was when the change in conditions took place. In some cases this is so extreme that you wouldn't say that tortoise looks 'normal'. I'm not saying it is unhealthy---but it isn't normal looking either.
Also, I question whether the pigment of a tortoise's shell gets laid down normally when it grows really fast. I've seen many captive raised hermanni that had smooth shells but that also had odd looking carapace pattern or color. I also wonder if the darker pigments that normally appear in the shell of some species can keep up with very fast growth. Ever wonder why so many 'blond' leopard tortoises are suddenly showing up that only turn dark later on in life? I think much of that is from lack of direct sunlight (as you and I discussed before) but I also think it could be from accelerated grwoth.

That's why I put it in brackets. 'normal' is a very subjective term. I guess you can say the growth you find in wild animals is normal and any judgement is based on that fact.

Genetics definately plays a part but in the case of leopards environment also plays a part. I see a distinct pattern where Leopards are raised quickly but warm. That is where I see many which are light in color.

I've raised leopards and have received leopards which grew outdoors and they have a great deal of black pigment.

Once again, I don't think it is a cut and dry issue. I'll bet there are many factors at play.

>>
>> I don't know if I would call a smooth carapace the only indicator of normal growth EJ.
>> Some tortoises that have grown very fast have unusually wide growth rings that you don't see in wild tortoises. If you look at WC redfoots they always have tight, evenly spaced and uniform growth rings. But once in a captive environment and cleaned of parasites their growth rings start to become widely spaced. In fact, you can often look at an animal and tell at what size it was when the change in conditions took place. In some cases this is so extreme that you wouldn't say that tortoise looks 'normal'. I'm not saying it is unhealthy---but it isn't normal looking either.
>> Also, I question whether the pigment of a tortoise's shell gets laid down normally when it grows really fast. I've seen many captive raised hermanni that had smooth shells but that also had odd looking carapace pattern or color. I also wonder if the darker pigments that normally appear in the shell of some species can keep up with very fast growth. Ever wonder why so many 'blond' leopard tortoises are suddenly showing up that only turn dark later on in life? I think much of that is from lack of direct sunlight (as you and I discussed before) but I also think it could be from accelerated grwoth.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think that is probably the best and most factual statement of them all.

It does seem that leopards are the most susceptible to captive influences as well. Of the ones that I hatched and kept track of, none turned pale since those were grown outside. But the two breeder males that produced them were really faded looking since they had been raised in VA and were in a basement for 9 months out of the year.