Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a picture of a tiny puddle from the rain the night before. This picture was taken this mourning, only a few feet from where the snake was photographed feeding.

While there was only a little water, it clearly shows its frozen solid. Our temps last night were in the mid-twenties, right friggin exactly where the snake was. Not in phoenix or somewhere else(your using bad data for your thoughts)

What I think the problem is, and its only my worthless opinion is, both you and Terry are builders(my term) you take data and automatically place in where you think it fits(in a wall or building) You take the data and add to and support your thoughts(the building) You do this a LOT. The problem is, it, the data, will form a building(paradign) but that building(paradign) may not be an accurate application of the data you took. In otherwords, its misplaced data, and that forms false paradigns(really bad building).

As a researher, you should be very reluctant to place data anywhere, you task is to gather data and allow it to place itself. Not you placing it.

You see, every time I show something, you automatically place it in a way it supports your particular paradign. Consider, it does not have to be right or wrong.

Also consider placing data out of context, will indeed form assumptions and rationalizations that are wrong.

With snakes, I go back to them as a whole. These snakes that we are talking about, all have similar behaviors, and similar biological needs, This has been expressed over and over. Yet, if I show a pic of something like this gophersnake feeding in winter, you dismiss your areas snakes from doing that. Why? because there is snow on the ground? Of course they are not doing this on the snow. But that does not eliminate them from doing this somewhere else? The question you cannot answer, because you have NO data.

Are you saying that if snakes in your area are skinny and need food, they have no option but to die? Are you saying in your area, only the very healthist individuals survive? Or are you saying there are no skinny or other individual snakes that need food at this time of year?

Or lastly, are you simply saying you do not know any of the above or if they are doing it, where?

You see, I see our(yours, terrys and snakes here) snakes doing about the same behaviors. But of course conditions perdict they must seek different ways to do them. After all, if they cannot meet their needs, they cannot exsist. Please think(consider) this, FR

ok...but where's the friggin snake now????.....and what are the daytime temps???.....the snake will probably thermoregulate

I just got back from the dentist(not bad) and I went back and there that dang snake is, hunting again, so guess what, I fed it another mouse. But this time, I took actual data and pics.

Air temps, sun temps, shade temps etc. as best I could without disturbing the snake. As Hint, the air temps at the time of feeding was EXACTLY 52F, pics coming in a few, thanks Bob

Was it not you that said air temps have very little to do with the temps the snakes use?? What is the temp in the spot the snake is sitting. It looks to be in the sun. What is the mass temp of that area. Is that not the key?? My girlfriend is in Vegas right now and last night it got very cold (near freezing) but today she was sitting out in the sun in shorts and a tank top. She said the air temps were cool but in the sun it was quite warm. I wonder what your snake would say if it could talk???

later Jason

I bet it said "i'm cold but i'm hungry so i'll eat" now i bet it say's "i'm cold and i feel like regurging" if it did'nt already.

Actually I was thinking if a snake in the wild can get itself to temps in the 40's at night but knows the next day it can get to temps in the 60's or 70's there is no reason for it to regurge. Bacteria grows very little in such low temps so the food would not rot provided the snake can get high enough temps for a few hours a day for the next few days.

>>Actually I was thinking if a snake in the wild can get itself to temps in the 40's at night but knows the next day it can get to temps in the 60's or 70's there is no reason for it to regurge. Bacteria grows very little in such low temps so the food would not rot provided the snake can get high enough temps for a few hours a day for the next few days.

I made a post a couple months ago, or so, about a juvenile lyre snake I found that had eaten (supposedly a lizard) during the night. It was near the end of March and about 50*F. at the time. It was probably even cooler earlier in the morning. The daytime temps, however, were quite high allowing for digestion.

I don't think the typical colubrids need low temps at night to keep from regurging. From what I've seen with my captive snakes, they regurge when the daytime temps aren't sufficient for digestion. Also, I don't think snakes think about what they're doing, they just do what works. Once temps become insufficient for digestion in the wild, I would assume snakes stop eating

TC

"Also, I don't think snakes think about what they're doing, they just do what works."

You're killing me Terry!!!!! Hugh

I was speaking in the context of an undernourished wild snake facing an approaching cold season. I only mean that I do not think the gophersnake Frank fed will regurge.

Aaron, sorry about reading so much into your post. I agree that FR's gopher probably won't regurge. It'll probably get enough heat from basking and having a good hide to digest that meal. I don't think it'll seek a cold spot overnight though. I think it'll find the securist, warm spot it can. Thanks...TC

PS: This would be a good behavior to test. What do our captives do when digesting a meal?

"This would be a good behavior to test. What do our captives do when digesting a meal?"

Mine do exactly what they need to do, remain on the warm side until the meal is pretty much digested! I can go in and check on them after feeding, and at any given time within the first 3 days, they are in the warmest part of the enclosure. After a few days, I find them in various spots of the enclosure. Some in the middle, some on the cool end, and some on the warm end. All doing what ectotherms do, regulating body temps according to their needs.
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I don't think the typical colubrids need low temps at night to keep from regurging. From what I've seen with my captive snakes, they regurge when the daytime temps aren't sufficient for digestion. Also, I don't think snakes think about what they're doing, they just do what works. Once temps become insufficient for digestion in the wild, I would assume snakes stop eating.

I think snakes do "think" about what they are doing. I think they "think" about barometer, wind, temp cycle (both daily and seasonal), humidity, location (near a den, weather there good hiding or thermoregulation places nearby) and all these "thoughts" help the snake determine what they "decide" to do. I guess what I am saying is that a wild snake has all those "thoughts" to go on and in captivity all they basicly have is temps and a hide box and a water dish, they do not know their keeper is going to keep the heat tape on and they have none of their normal indicators to go on so a captive snake may regurge at 60 or 70 more from stress than actual temps where a wild snake would not.

>>I think snakes do "think" about what they are doing. I think they "think" about barometer, wind, temp cycle (both daily and seasonal), humidity, location (near a den, weather there good hiding or thermoregulation places nearby) and all these "thoughts" help the snake determine what they "decide" to do. I guess what I am saying is that a wild snake has all those "thoughts" to go on and in captivity all they basicly have is temps and a hide box and a water dish, they do not know their keeper is going to keep the heat tape on and they have none of their normal indicators to go on so a captive snake may regurge at 60 or 70 more from stress than actual temps where a wild snake would not.

Aaron, are you saying a captive snake will regurge at higher temps than a wild snake because it has more stress, and it doesn't have as much info to go on? I might agree from my observations that captive snakes are usually less hardy than wild snakes and might tend to regurge at warmer temps, but I have to disagree on the "why" of it. I believe captives have lots of info to go on. In spite of being indoors they do react to changes in humidity, temperature, and barometric changes outside. These things change conditions indoors too and snakes are very good at sensing these things.

I think you need to be careful about giving snakes "human" characteristics. They don't have "thinking" type brains. They are very good at reacting in ways to stimulus that insures their survival. If snakes had thoughts like you said, then our captives would be able to remember that the keeper will give them a warm spot for digestion, and that it won't get as cold as their instincts are telling them it's going to get. They would have the same type brains as wild snakes.

Thanks for the post....TC

Aaron, are you saying a captive snake will regurge at higher temps than a wild snake because it has more stress, and it doesn't have as much info to go on? I might agree from my observations that captive snakes are usually less hardy than wild snakes and might tend to regurge at warmer temps, but I have to disagree on the "why" of it. I believe captives have lots of info to go on. In spite of being indoors they do react to changes in humidity, temperature, and barometric changes outside. These things change conditions indoors too and snakes are very good at sensing these things.

I think you need to be careful about giving snakes "human" characteristics. They don't have "thinking" type brains. They are very good at reacting in ways to stimulus that insures their survival. If snakes had thoughts like you said, then our captives would be able to remember that the keeper will give them a warm spot for digestion, and that it won't get as cold as their instincts are telling them it's going to get. They would have the same type brains as wild snakes.

I don't know if "think" is the best word to use but I think snakes do sense weather and react to it. I am saying in captivity a snake may sense it is time to engage in a particular activity such as seek hibernaculum but because it is in captivity it cannot and that will lead to stress which can lead to other things such as regurgitation and decreased immune function. This can be observed on a small scale with a captive that paces or does poorly because it has no hide area. And yes a wild-caught snake can be acclimated to captivity with time and will be able to "realize" all it's needs are going to be met.
And yes snakes and other animals too do "remember" things out of their ordinary experience, for example mammals in State Parks that beg or forage for food in campgrounds or snakes that develop a feeding response when their cage is opened.

>>And yes snakes and other animals too do "remember" things out of their ordinary experience, for example mammals in State Parks that beg or forage for food in campgrounds or snakes that develop a feeding response when their cage is opened.

I believe snakes have some learned behaviors, as well as their instinctive ones, but I don't imagine they sit around and think about what they're going to do. They just do what works and has been successful before.

Thanks for the info, but i would'nt let my captive colubrids digest at 40/50/60 degrees when hi-70's low-80's do a better job.

After I took the pic of the ice, I had a dentist app. I returned at about 9:30 I went out to my monitor building and there was that dang gophersnake, hunting again. The air temp at the time was 52F at the airport. I checked temps in the shade here and they ranged from 50 to 55F. The previous nights temps were mid twenties. The snake was in the shade.

I offered a mouse and it consumed it with no hesitation. The snake then hunted around for a couple hours, then coiled up right where I fed it. It is now, 3:30 and its still there coiled up.

Heres a pic of it eating a mouse today,

Here is a pic of it coiled up.

I went thru some pics of gophersnakes found in this area. Heres a pic of a gopher in ambush position. Its head, was positioned right above a packrat nest entrance.

I believe these may be the same snakes, but that is not positive, just a educated guess. I did find encounter this snake(possibly) in ambush position by a packrat nest, right where it is now(two feet to the left) The last two encounters were both in the summer.

So, the story goes on, I better go look and see what the heck its doing. FR

This snake came back the next day to look for food at the same spot. That much is fact.

Do you think the snake stayed the night very close to this spot and therefore could easily find it the next day? Or, do you think the snake may have "learned" of this spot, even if it is short-term memory, and could find it if the snake was moved say 50 feet away? How about next year.. could the snake return to feed based on prior success?

Or is it that snakes live where their prey lives, end of story.

I think they have memory, both short and long term. Not just instinct. How could they know where to congregate for brumation(for some) or know where the love shack is(for others)? Not just chemical receptors, although surely that is what leads them there in the first place. I know some of my snakes recognize certain people and react according to what kind of experience they had with them. Ever had a friend/relative/acquaintence who somehow pissed your snake off? i.e., dropped, squeezed, teased it? Or do you think Jeyzen's snakes know what's coming when he gets the camera ready and the snack tray out? (good experience) Shoot they think through things and solve problems on a daily basis, although not with what most of us would call deep thinking! I know my bull snake was a sweetheart 'till he escaped for two months and was recaptured. He KNOWS who put him back in the big house!
Todd Hughes

e-mail me.... PS it's finally cold enough in SA to field collect...

what are the surface temps where this gopher is hanging out, hunting, etc?
daveb

Hi Frank, thanks for the follow up. Some thoughts concerning your post,

< While there was only a little water, it clearly shows its frozen solid. Our temps last night were in the mid-twenties, right friggin exactly where the snake was. Not in phoenix or somewhere else(your using bad data for your thoughts) >

I'm not sure where your going with this Frank. I have stated that I have seen snakes that have fed both earlier in the year (spring) and late in the year (fall) when the night time temps were quite cold here in Ky. The key is these are times of the year when there is great flunctuation between night time lows and day time highs. In other words it might get below freezing at some point but this will be followed by 50's or 60's in the day. Sort of like winter in Ariz heh? What we don't have is sufficient temps in our winter months to allow snakes to digest a meal. A temp range on a typical winters day is probably something like a low of 20 and a high of 35. Of course we might have an unseasonable warm spell for a few days but we are just as likely to have an arctic blast. Nature is a wonderful thing. Instinct directs our snakes not to eat at this time. There is no biological necessity for them to do so since they can gain substenance the rest of the year here and an undigested meal in their gut on a cold winters day risks death. Also since I did not know exactly where you live in Ariz I explained I used Phoenix at random for discussion sake and asked you to clarify. I did not intend this as data as you propose but rather a starting point.

< What I think the problem is, and its only my worthless opinion is, both you and Terry are builders(my term) you take data and automatically place in where you think it fits(in a wall or building) >

I guess in order to make clear what our positions are on this topic I have to ask you. Are you saying that you feel the snakes in Ky are feeding during the winter? If this is not your position then please explain what it is. My position as stated many times before is that there is no biological reason for all snakes to perform the same life functions in all places at the same time. I could be misinterpreting exactly what your point is, but from where I'm sitting here it sounds like you are essentially saying that just because a Pituophis fed in Ariz yesterday then most surely a Pituophis feeds today in Ky. If so, it would clearly appear to me that you would be the one using your own data to satisfy the needs of your ideas, even when nonapplicable. If this is not the case please elaborate so that I know what your position is.

< Also consider placing data out of context, will indeed form assumptions and rationalizations that are wrong >

Totally agree. One observation is something to build upon not something to draw a final conclusion on. A parellel example of the thin gopher snake you observed would be the emaciated snakes that I notes seeing late in the year here (Oct, Nov). It was clear that there were to some degree special circumstances that prompted the snakes I have seen in the condition to be feeding so late. In other words, obviously thin snake trying to get one last big meal for the year. Why is this so important? The snake knows that soon it will not be able to metabolize food and must take this last opportunity. This I believe, and this is just for what its worth is not just a cognitive process but an instinctual one.

< Are you saying that if snakes in your area are skinny and need food, they have no option but to die? Are you saying in your area, only the very healthist individuals survive? Or are you saying there are no skinny or other individual snakes that need food at this time of year? >

Honestly we very rarely come across scrawny and sickly looking snakes. I think this is good testement that yes, the healthy survive and generally the unhealthy become part of the food chain.

< Or lastly, are you simply saying you do not know any of the above or if they are doing it, where? >

Well, they will be doing it here in March and it appears that on some level (as I expected) they are doing it now in Ariz.

< You see, I see our(yours, terrys and snakes here) snakes doing about the same behaviors. But of course conditions perdict they must seek different ways to do them. After all, if they cannot meet their needs, they cannot exsist. Please think(consider) this, FR >

You state above that they seek different ways to do the same behaviors. I agree. Why is it you think they have to do it at the same time? Wouldn't this be a case of you interpretting your data to fulfill your needs rather than those of the snakes?

As always, enjoy the snake talk Frank. Thanks for the conversation. Phil

FR, I pretty much have to agree with Phil on this one

We had a low in the 20's today in northern Michigan, but we also had a high in the 20's. There weren't any snakes basking in the sun. I'm afraid they're all well hidden underground and I doubt if much of their prey is moving around either. I can speculate that there might still be snakes in places where they still have a little movement, but I don't believe there are places where it's warm enough for them to be feeding and digesting at this time of year where I am.

>>< You see, I see our(yours, terrys and snakes here) snakes doing about the same behaviors. But of course conditions perdict they must seek different ways to do them. After all, if they cannot meet their needs, they cannot exsist. Please think(consider) this, FR >

I agree with this statement. Like Phil said, they are doing basically the same things, but they don't have to be doing them at the same times. They are meeting their needs. If our snakes weren't resting in a cooldown state right now they would die of exposure. They meet their needs by not feeding at this time, then picking up where they left off a few months from now. They are amazing animals, and some of my snakes have shown me that they can go a long time w/o feeding, many months, and still keep their health. ASAMOF, I have data on snakes that have been cooled down for several months and not lost any weight at all, and still go on to reach maturity in normal time, reproduce, etc. Of course, in other areas that are much warmer it's very possible snakes are able to keep on feeding, until those conditions cease to exist.

I'm not a researcher, per se, like Frank and a few others. I do tend to think about data or any piece of information and try to figure out how it fits with what I know. If something doesn't make sense, or I don't have enough info, I then do some research by looking at other folk's data, etc. Don't we all do this? Isn't that part of the point of sharing info on these forums (hopefully before they get deleted)? I think we have different ways of thinking about things. Of course, no two people are alike and we all vary somewhat on how we see nature, and other things.

Thanks for the conversation....TC

I have said many times now, this is only a gophersnake eating in mid dec. period. Now I added, it came out after nightime temps in the mid twenties, and fed again. When it fed, it was 50F where it was at the time. later the sun warmed it up to 82F(surface temps not air temps), it stayed there until 4:30, then left.

I could add more temps, such as the hottest temps I could find were 121F on an old log. The earth under the logs was also warmer the the temps around it. But sadly the snake was not there.

The problem is, your making all sort of connections that are not needed. The above is a observation over two days. Hopefully we will be able to add more info in the coming days.

What interests me is, not what you think, thats your problem(really no offense) but something like with the fella that found the ratsnakes in a basement. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if they were presented a mouse. It would have also been interesting to see where they went after eating it, if they would indeed eat. It would be interesting to see where your kingsnakes are and ratsnakes, etc. Where they are now. Not that you assume they are doing nothing.

Truthfully, when you guys say, this and that does not happen. I only think, how boring(just being honest), and to bad your not more curious and inventive. You see, I am only proding you to investigate your snakes in a different way, but I am failing miserably, your only defending yourself more. To bad.

Remember what I said a long time ago, Lack of data is not data, its merely lack of data. Until you actually see what your animals are doing, you only have, lack of data.

In the case of this event, now people can say, they saw/hear of a case of a snake feeding in winter. Cheers FR

< have said many times now, this is only a gophersnake eating in mid dec. period. Now I added, it came out after nightime temps in the mid twenties, and fed again. When it fed, it was 50F where it was at the time. later the sun warmed it up to 82F(surface temps not air temps), it stayed there until 4:30, then left. >

82 degrees!!! You should have put a sweater box there with a water bowl and newspaper and he would have crawled right in. The other temps you give here, that where left out before, are the reason it is feeding. As long as it is sunny and there is no sudden barometric changes (cold front moving in fast) the snake will continue to eat because it knows that it can get to ideal (sweater box) temps.

Frank this does support your statement that snakes can hold food in extreme temps (nighttime lows) and that is great as it will likely open some eyes but your daytime temps are not cold enough to be 'winter" to most. The rock outcroppings you have there are so massive that the max attainable temps are boggling to hear about for the first time. I just don't see you supporting your point very well. I really wish you were somewhere outside of the south west and still observing these events. I would love the thrill of a new idea to look into. Unfortunately you are right that I and others are just seeing more and more reasons to support our own preconceived ideas. thanks for trying

later Jason

I don't have a point to support, I think the snakes have lots of points and many here are missing them. But yes, I only think that or better yet see that.

The results of showing and discussing this stuff is interesting. For instance, in the begining, all snakes flat hibernated. Then the next step was, Ok, the ones in the south do not hibernate but surely they don't feed in the winter. Now they feed in the winter because they can find suitable temps to do so.

So far, is a very short period we have a huge migration of understanding. The question is, is this as far as it goes or will it go farther. Will folks keep expanding their views? Will I or we be able to express hints or observations that will continue to support that? Thanks FR

Hi Frank, I do like your style of thinking. New discoveries are only found if we go outside the accepted bounds. I'm sure I am guilty of this at times like most of us are. Sometimes we all need to step back from something and put preconceived notions aside and start anew.

For the sake of discussion though I have always been open to the the possibility that some snakes in the deep south may not hibernate in the classical context and may well feed at this time. To me this would make sense and I would have expected that result. You know, the old idea that I have that all snakes in all places are not necessarily performing the same behaviors at all times haha!
Thanks, Phil

Thanks Phil, but your second paragraph. Its like you see a bear trap in the trail. The same trail you go down all the time. You keep setting into that dang trap. Then some one tells you, you can go right around that olde bear trap. So next time down the trail, you stop and think, hmmmmmmmm then walk around the trap. But your curiousity gets to you. You turn around and look at the trap, then go and stick you foot out to see if the trap is still working. Wam, there you go, back in the trap.

You do understand, you can walk around the trap and keep going. Or, if you really miss the trap, step in it next time you go down the trail.

What all that crapola means is, just because you step out of your ordinary methods, and do indeed discover new things, doesn't mean you cannot go back and do what your doing now. In my opinion, venturing out, only gives you a better understanding of what your doing now. FR

Frank, I get the impression that the only data you might accept would be if Terry or I were to see a snake eating a mouse in Ky or Wi in Dec. Why do you consider us not doing so a lack of data if it does not occur? I may have mentioned that I spend a great deal time in the field here in all seasons including winter. The next snake I see sitting on top of an ice pile wolfing down a mouse will be my first haha. Terry's point about the low and high temps is a valid one. High temps in the 20's and low temps in the 20's = snakecickle's not ones searching for a meal. In order to find some of the temps like you are talking about in your post above, I would have to leave the woods and go back inside my house.

Why do you think our snakes need to feed in the winter?
Cheers, Phil

That is the only thing/data that would be of interest, consider, your views are as old as the hills. Please do not get riled, even if your right, its still old school.

The problem as I see it and the answer is plain as day. But unfortunately, you are set in stone and refuse to open your mind. Which will make you a very poor researcher. After all, its not about was is already known(why would you need to research that) its about the possibilities that you or we, don't know.

In lew of so many facts, like all these snakes require the same conditions in captivity, or they all seem to have the same basic timing in nature. Emerge in march/april, Disappear in Oct/Nov. They do those here, and in Mi. with Kentucky included. They do so in spite of the huge(as you pointed out) temperature(climate) differences. They do this from coast to coast and in all kinds of different climates, hmmmmmmmm makes a poor boy wonder?

What bothers me about you/s, may have an insanity problem(only a guess, not calling names) You seem to expect by doing the same things over and over, you will recieve different answers(difinition of insanity). Like mentioning seeing snakes on top the snow drifts(over or under AC). If you want to see different things, you must look in a different way(the goal of the whole exercise) Its really that simple. You cannot see different things looking the same old ways. Really its very simple, if you actually want to see them doing stuff in winter, or just see different things, YOU have to change YOUR approach, the snakes are even more boneheaded then us, they will not change for you/us. Try something different, test things, heck test dumb things, they may not end up being dumb. They may end up proving your old approach dumb.

For instance, if I were you. I would go to one of your close by locations, maybe even on your own property(terry are you listening) and dig a big hole right next to where your successful ac is. Oh about the size of a pile of tin. Dig it hmmmmmmm 2 ft deep on one side, and 10 inches deep on the other, then fill it with stones, smooth round river stones, on from softball sizes to grapefruit size and a few a little bigger, you know so when they are stacked in the hole you dug, the gaps between the stones are the size the snakes can squeeze thru. Fill the hole with these stones to about one or two inches from the top. Then place pieces(not a whole sheet) of plexiglass over various parts of the stones. Then cover with the same substrate that was there. Put the tin over it, several layers, not stacked evenly, then let cook(age) If you were high tech, you could install leads you could hook up a thermometer too. Then check these temps year around. Finally, you can lift the tin to see if snakes are there, once they start using the tin, then you can lift the tin, and if the snakes are not there, wipe the dirt off the plexiglass and veiw whats happening in the stones. This way, you do not have to dig and disturb the snakes. If you installed leads, you can check the temps in various places. What this is, is a tool to look into their world. Not wait for them to be part of your world. After all, its about them and their world.

Now why I mention this is simple, on our study site, we have snakes that live in this type of situation, so we have a little headstart.

Make sure you put this in the right place, you know, just like one of your successful AC's, right sun angle, right soil drainage, etc.

My guess is, this will be far less work then all the hiking and driving all over hill and dale, and will teach you far far more. My guess is, you will see your snakes are active for far longer then you thought. No one ever said they are active 24/7, 365, just far longer and much different then you think they are now. Give it a go, only you are stopping you. Cheers FR

FR, that idea is fantastic (hole with stones.)

I've been wondering for months now how I could possibly see what is going on under the surface. I'm going to try this technique. Thanks.

>> For instance, if I were you. I would go to one of your close by locations, maybe even on your own property(terry are you listening) and dig a big hole right next to where your successful ac is. Oh about the size of a pile of tin. Dig it hmmmmmmm 2 ft deep on one side, and 10 inches deep on the other, then fill it with stones, smooth round river stones, on from softball sizes to grapefruit size and a few a little bigger, you know so when they are stacked in the hole you dug, the gaps between the stones are the size the snakes can squeeze thru. Fill the hole with these stones to about one or two inches from the top. Then place pieces(not a whole sheet) of plexiglass over various parts of the stones. Then cover with the same substrate that was there. Put the tin over it, several layers, not stacked evenly, then let cook(age) If you were high tech, you could install leads you could hook up a thermometer too. Then check these temps year around. Finally, you can lift the tin to see if snakes are there, once they start using the tin, then you can lift the tin, and if the snakes are not there, wipe the dirt off the plexiglass and veiw whats happening in the stones. This way, you do not have to dig and disturb the snakes. If you installed leads, you can check the temps in various places. What this is, is a tool to look into their world. Not wait for them to be part of your world. After all, its about them and their world.
>>

Frank, that's a great sounding tool. I've been headed in that direction, but you just made it all sound so simple. Many years ago I dug out a hole where the little intermittent stream was eroding the topsoil. The hole is about five ft. deep, and I filled it with all the rocks I was picking up in places we were haying in. I suspected snakes would use it as a wintering spot, but being new to the property failed to realize the spring thaw would flood them all if they did. I never did see any snakes in this spot, but the rocks are all still there.

A couple years later we built an addition on the rear of our house. We had to dig out an area because the rear was about half underground. I saved this additional soil, rock, etc, and had it piled up on top of the "Big Hill" on the "Back Ten". This area is high and dry and has great drainage. I've found out that the snakes love to hang out back there all summer long. I put some flat limestone rocks on the side of the hill and check them every once in awhile. The most snakes I've ever found under one rock was thirteen, a combination of garters, browns, redbellies, and smooth greens. We also find an occasional milksnake (kingsnake) there.

In other words, I tried to do something to attract snakes, but didn't quite have all the info you have. Thanks for the great idea and I'll see if I can put it to some use. I don't know about digging a hole this winter though, because the ground is already partially frozen, and there are a lot of rocks in that area you're thinking of. I don't want to disturb resting snakes either, but will think about how I can do this. Can you tell me where I can find "leads" and the type thermometers that attach to them? Just one business to get me started would help.

Thanks....TC

Frank, I definitely have to give you an A' for creativity haha. That is a great idea you have and one I will employ. You may think I am resistent to new ideas but I'm not really. Thats one of the main reasons I enjoy these conversations actually. No doubt I have a system of beliefs based on my personal experiences and though I don't always agree with some of what you say, by far (to me at least) the best thing you bring here is encouraging us all open our minds to possibilities. For this I thank you!

Honestly, I'm always learning something new while out in the field and to me thats what keeps it interesting. I like to observe and mix things up and often times change patterns completely while adapting to conditions. Your idea of the hole in the ground has me intrigued though I might have to wait until the spring thaw to bust my shovel through the frozen earth! Another cold front heading our way bringing highs and lows in the teens and twentys F. If it doesn't happen this year I'll be sure to set it up for next year though. My guess is the snakes will be deeper then and once the true cold settles in I'll see nothing. Your idea is worth testing though and I look forward to see what will be discovered. Hey, you got me convinced. I'm more than willing to investigate the possibilities! Thanks again, Phil

Your not going to find anything in a hole only 2' deep and full of rocks in KY in the winter!! Maybe once you get below the 4' mark you might find something, but I doubt it.
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

>>I have said many times now, this is only a gophersnake eating in mid dec. period. Now I added, it came out after nightime temps in the mid twenties, and fed again. When it fed, it was 50F where it was at the time. later the sun warmed it up to 82F(surface temps not air temps), it stayed there until 4:30, then left.
>>

The point is that a gopher snake ate a meal at the cool temp of around 50*F, after a cold night below freezing. It then went on to digest that meal. This is a great observation. Unfortunately, you also implied that snakes are doing this in northern areas too, maybe just in a different way. In other words, gopher snakes in Wisconsin, milksnakes in Michigan, are pursuing a meal underground, during winter, when the need arises. The thing I have a problem with is that I don't think the temps below ground, anywhere in Michigan, are warm enough for a snake to digest.

>> What interests me is, not what you think, thats your problem(really no offense) but something like with the fella that found the ratsnakes in a basement. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if they were presented a mouse. It would have also been interesting to see where they went after eating it, if they would indeed eat. It would be interesting to see where your kingsnakes are and ratsnakes, etc. Where they are now. Not that you assume they are doing nothing.
>>

Frank, I understand you would like to see data on our part, but that kind of data is really difficult to obtain, as you well know. Not even the true scientists, the university researchers, have that kind of data. I would like to be able to help us in this respect, but until I can come up with some methods for getting that kind of data, we have to go by whatever supporting info we have to make a "best guess".

I do have a guess as to what would happen had we found a snake underground at very cool temps and tried to feed it. I base this opinion on the evidence I got from several captive snakes that I fed too early after winter brumation. The first was one of my best, breeder female, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, Elaphe bimaculata. After I took her out of my cooldown room, I only let her warm up for a day, then let her eat a large meal of about four or five fuzzies. Two days later she was dead. I assumed the food rotted in her gut and killed her. My bad mistake, and I learned from that event to allow my brumated snakes to warm up for about a week, or so, and let their digestive system kick in, so to speak, before feeding. I haven't had any more losses since adopting this new procedure.

>> Truthfully, when you guys say, this and that does not happen. I only think, how boring(just being honest), and to bad your not more curious and inventive. You see, I am only proding you to investigate your snakes in a different way, but I am failing miserably, your only defending yourself more. To bad.
>>

I don't think you're failing. I understand what you'd like to see. I would like to see it too. We have a tendency to protect ourselves, but I think we're far enough along that most of us are trying to see the same things, if possible. The question of snakes eating in winter is very controversial and there will be a lot of opinions based on people's experience, and lack of it.

I don't doubt that there are snakes that eat in winter. Certainly there are some that do, and also some that don't, even in AZ. Whether we have any in MI that do is an interesting question. I believe most of our snakes have a long rest period, but it would be an interesting project to test and see if there are any examples of feeding in the wild in mid-winter. You suggested taking a wild caught snake and feeding it, something like what you did with the gopher yesterday. If the snake was at 50*F, a favorable temp, and remainded at that temp, do you think it could digest the meal? I believe it would have to find a warmer temp, no matter how much it needed to feed. My question for myself is, "Is it possible there are any warmer temps than 50*F, in MI, in winter?" One of the things I want to do is test for underground temps.

Thanks for the info, Frank

TC

Good thinking Terry, I don't know what they would do, thats why I would like to see it tested. You see, I too am trying not to assume all such things.

I did not know, that gophersnake would do what it did/doing, I had to test it. I was very happy to see the results and it will stay with me. I will keep on trying stuff. How about you?

And to think, what kind of fool(me) would actually think to feed a wild snake in the winter? hmmmmmmm FR

You don't want to come across as being in orbit somewhere, nor too condescending. You want to make a point and have it considered - if I'm correct.

I've been away for many weeks, popped in & saw this. Wow! You certainly like to er, uh, provoke lively discussions. (;

I value your knowledge of field observationns, but this Forum user recommends a larger dose of tact, discretion & diplomacy.

I am the one doing this, so let me do it. If you feel what I say is interesting and deserves discussion, then how about you doing it in a nicer way and I can learn from you.

Consider, I never claimed to be a comunicator, just some old desert hick thats been around reptiles for a very long time. Please do not expect to much from me.

I have to wonder why people think if your good at one thing, your suppose to be good at all things. In my case, thats far from the truth. I am very good at reptiles, I have keenly focused on that. I am not so good at people, tried my best to avoid them. Trouble is, its people thats affecting the reptiles, so my education goes on. FR

...and I don't think I've ever kept an adult snake that went off feed. I keep snakes in Florida though, land of sort-of-perpetual warmth, what do I know?

I reckon it's pretty obvious that snakes that live in warmer climates have a longer period of activity than those that live in temperate zones, which hibernate.

Tropical and some subtropical snakes are active year-round.

Tim

Third Eye

I have read this thread with much interest and talked to my dad in MO last night. Well, guess what. Those snakes have returned again this year, as I well knew they would. He has promised to take some pics and send them to me, as I cannot get out there this year!! I also asked him if he would document what species are there, #'s, and estimate sizes.

When I was there in Jan 2004, I handled every snake that was in the basement, and I can tell you that everyone of them was very cold and torpid. Moving very, very slow, with no tongue flickering at all. They did not try to escape as we removed them from the property. There were 3 eastern yellowbellied racers in the mix, and none of them even tried to bite.

None of them had any kind of tell-tale bulge of food in them at all.

There were 14 snakes total, 11 black rats and 3 racers. We had to move them because the owner wanted them out. So we put them in a large container and put them in a basement of one of my dads rental properties. I set them up with water and my dad took care of them until they could be released the following spring. This was in January in NW MO. Very cold there. The snakes were returned to the wooded areas around the house and released the following spring. They all survived "brumation" and were not fed. They were released I believe in mid to late april, dont remember when.

Anyway, what I am trying to get at, is this:
The snakes over in your neck of the woods have very different living conditions than any snakes in the north or midwest. Especially in the winter months. I believe that the snakes here in the midwest and in the north, do "hibernate". I dont think any of the snakes are eating and digesting food during the winter months. There is just not enough heat for them to successfully digest any meals at all. Sure, once you get below the frost line the ground is not frozen, but Ill tell you what, it is cold. Very cold. I have dug house foundations in the winter and I know that the ground is pretty cold. We have turned up amphibians from time to time, but never any snakes.

The ground conditions here in the winter months just does not meet the requirements for snakes to adequately digest a meal. Snakes will not eat when you cool them, they know that eating a meal in this state will surely end their life. A snake knows what conditions it needs to survive, this animal has been around for millions of years and has adapted wonderfully to all the different habitats that it lives in.

Take a tropical snake and release it in the northern states or in the midwest. It will probably survive the summer, but come winter, I will bet you a paycheck the animal will die with the first hard freeze!! You know why?? Because it does not have the survival instincts of the snakes that live in these conditions and have evolved to survive here.

This is why alligators and crocodiles do not live in any areas that freeze for months at a time. They cannot survive. There are no snakes living in the arctic, greenland, and antarctica. Sure they get some warmer weather there a month or two out of the year, but not enough to support any reptile. They are cold blooded, and cannot survive. That is why they must hibernate here. They can only get as warm as their surroundings, and in Jan and Feb here, its pretty darn cold. Temps at night down in the single digits and daytime temps only up in the upper 20's, low 30's. So, Im from MO, and our motto is "Show me". So show me a snake that can survive for 2 to 3 months in these conditions, especially eating and mating, and you sir will be rich. Because you will have a snake that is darn near indestructable!!!

The snakes over in the southwest have drastically different winters than we do. No comparison. So no wonder your snakes are doing different things than ours. Thats only common sense. Same thing with the snakes down in the southeast. Warmer, shorter winters will allow the snakes down there to be alot more active than in the north and midwest.

Your state is a good example. I have spent plenty of time in Yuma proving grounds. I have been there in the summer and winter. The winter weather fluctuated drastically between night and day. At night it would get down in the 30s, frost all over everything, cold. Then by 10am it was already 75. I saw everything from lizards, scorpions, to snakes in the winter. As soon as the temps hit about 50, they were out basking.

I did a wheather search for Tucson and here is what your weather was today: High of 64, low was 39 last night. Current temp as I write this, 48. The forecast is awesome!!!! The rest of the week upper 60's and lower 70's for highs and mid 30's to low 40's lows. All this with partly sunny skies to boot!!! WELL, no wonder your snakes are out during the day!!!!! Those temps are our temps come late mar early april, and guess what, thats when all of our snakes start coming out!!!!!!

You know what our weather was like today??? Well, let me just tell you: High of 41 and low of 32 with rain. No sunshine!!
Here is our forecast for the next week: Highs in the mid to low 30's, lows in the 20's and teens, with rain and snow!! Right now as Im typing this, our temp is 35, 3 degrees above freezing.
Wednesday, we are looking at some partly sunny skies with, hey, highs around 40!!!

So it all depends on where you are and what time of year.

Call me close minded or whatever, but you will not pursuade me to change my mind on what I know. It is physically impossible for the snakes here to digest a meal during the winter months.

Take a snake, put it in a refrigerator, drop the temps to 40, leave it in there for a couple of weeks and drop a food item in the container with it. I will bet you that the snake will not eat. That is the same conditions we have here in KY during the winter months. If the snake is underground, the temps are in the upper 30's to mid 40's, and dark. If you can get a snake to eat and survive for 3 months in those conditions, then you will have made your point and changed science!!! But, you will fail, as it cannot happen.
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Brian, that was a very interesting post. Thanks for all the extra information, and I hope you stay with that spot for as long as you can and get more data for us There sure were a lot of black rats in that basement.

Do you remember when the black rats were called pilot black snakes by people thinking they lead other snakes to hibernating places? I wonder how much truth there was to that and how so many of them managed to find the same spot? Seems like there should be some Great Plains ratsnakes there too. In Michigan, in our area, we only get Eastern milks in the basements, as we don't have any ratsnakes up here.

Good luck....TC

Thanks TC
I am going to have my dad use his temp gun and get some body temps of the snakes there, as well as temps of the surrounding structure and ground. In that part of MO, it is well within the emoryi range, but, I have never seen any there. Usually just black rats and racers. Garters of course and a few water snakes as well. But we have never seen any GPR there. All of my family used to call the black rats pilot snakes, and I can remember my great-grandmother talking about them leading all of the copperheads to hibernation spots!!! Pretty funny now that I look back on that, and us kids all believing it! It would be nice to find some other species in the mix as well, but I dont know how much longer this spot will continue to serve as a hibernaculum. As the current owner is building on to the old house this winter. He lives out of state and is having it done by contractors. The old house was built in the late 1800's and hasnt been lived in since 1978 or so. There was no running water there, and the house is all original. Still has the old original cypress siding. My dad had to rewire the place and has done alot of restoring. They want to maintain the old house the way it was when it was built. They are going to live in the newer construction and leave the old house as a part of history. So I dont know what the future holds for those snakes. Hopefully the owner will leave them alone, as black snakes and racers are perfectly harmless and very beneficial around farms.

And on an interesting side note, the racers there are the flaviventris, and are just as black as any of our priapus here in KY!! Pretty wild, and has me intriqued as to why they are so black there, and just across in Kansas a couple hundred miles, they are greenish/olive/bluish with cream/yellow bellies!! I would like to see some DNA testing on these guys to see if they are indeed flaviventris. It is well out of the priapus range and deep into flaviventris range, so maybe it is just a part of the variability of these snakes!!

As soon as I get the info from my dad, Ill post it!!
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Brian, thanks for the intriguing post again.

I've seen some photos from herpers that live in and visited that area from eastern KS to s.c. MO. One guy, Chad, posted some pics of an old well he found last spring in e. KS. It's interesting because it was full of G.P. rats and a few other snakes. Also, because it was March and the snakes were just coming to the surface, gradually warming before their dispersal. These old wells are a great look into the winter world of snakes. They have easy access to all levels below ground and most likely differing temps Look at the round piece to the right with the handle...

This is the well...

I'm thinking the GPR's are somewhat habitat specific and probably have better habitat in KS than in s.c. MO. Where your house is, could it be more upland and forested? I know the Ozark Plateau goes into southern MO and is hilly with woods/forest. A guy named Eitan posted some pics of landscape and various racers, etc, from MO. The racers seemed like crosses bt. black racers and yellow-bellies, etc. That's a very interesting idea.

Black rat snakes are habitat specific also. In Michigan black rats remain in southern, deciduous forest areas, different habitat from the areas where Western and Eastern fox snakes are found. The fact you are seeing black rats at your house tells me that the habitat must have at least a little woods in the area and could possibly be hilly.

Looking at the variability of the black racers one might think that the local racers are just very variable, and are being affected by the variability of habitat, but consider the possibility that they may actually have genes from two or more subspecies of racers. I've been reading a book recently that talks about how the Ice Ages caused ecosystems to shift, and the mesic, eastern woodlands supposedly shifted south and to the west during glacial episodes. Those racers at your house could be relict leftovers from the last ice age and may actually have genes from at least two subspecies. Testing would be a good idea ;O)

Have a nice holiday. I'm getting ready to leave for AZ next week...Terry

>>Thanks TC
>> I am going to have my dad use his temp gun and get some body temps of the snakes there, as well as temps of the surrounding structure and ground. In that part of MO, it is well within the emoryi range, but, I have never seen any there. Usually just black rats and racers. Garters of course and a few water snakes as well. But we have never seen any GPR there. All of my family used to call the black rats pilot snakes, and I can remember my great-grandmother talking about them leading all of the copperheads to hibernation spots!!! Pretty funny now that I look back on that, and us kids all believing it! It would be nice to find some other species in the mix as well, but I dont know how much longer this spot will continue to serve as a hibernaculum. As the current owner is building on to the old house this winter. He lives out of state and is having it done by contractors. The old house was built in the late 1800's and hasnt been lived in since 1978 or so. There was no running water there, and the house is all original. Still has the old original cypress siding. My dad had to rewire the place and has done alot of restoring. They want to maintain the old house the way it was when it was built. They are going to live in the newer construction and leave the old house as a part of history. So I dont know what the future holds for those snakes. Hopefully the owner will leave them alone, as black snakes and racers are perfectly harmless and very beneficial around farms.
>>
>> And on an interesting side note, the racers there are the flaviventris, and are just as black as any of our priapus here in KY!! Pretty wild, and has me intriqued as to why they are so black there, and just across in Kansas a couple hundred miles, they are greenish/olive/bluish with cream/yellow bellies!! I would like to see some DNA testing on these guys to see if they are indeed flaviventris. It is well out of the priapus range and deep into flaviventris range, so maybe it is just a part of the variability of these snakes!!
>>
>> As soon as I get the info from my dad, Ill post it!!
>>Brian
>>-----
>>
>>
>>
>>RATS
>>1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
>>1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
>>1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
>>1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
>>1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
>>0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
>>1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
>>1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
>>
>>RACERS
>>1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer "Nightcrawler" (MO locale)
>>
>>KINGS
>>1.1 California king snake "Bandit" & "Moonstar" (Coastal phase)
>>1.1 Prairie king snakes "Bishop" & "Askani" (KY locale)
>>0.1 Black king snake "Domino" (KY locale)
>>1.1 Desert Kingsnakes "Gambit" & "Psylocke"
>>0.1 Florida Kingsnake "Shard"
>>0.1 Speckled Kingsnake "Haven"
>>
>>MILKS
>>1.0 Eastern/red Milk intergrade "Cable" (KY locale)
>>1.0 Eastern/Red Milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
>>
>>BULLS/GOPHERS/PINES
>>0.1 Sonoran Gopher "Husk"
>>1.0 Kankakee bull (Phil Peak stock)
>>
>> Good luck and Happy Herping
>>Brian
-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

I just reread your first post and saw that you already mentioned the location being in n.w. MO, my mistake. I would look at the range map again, for emoryi, because it's range just barely enters n.w. MO. (Can you give a county?) Also, the Western fox snake enters n.w. MO, and it would be interesting to note if you're in their range. It's possible neither of these two sps are in your location.

Rethinking the taxonomy angle, depending on the location, sounds like the racers are being affected by the habitat rather than the genes, but it's possible they could have mixed genes still. Good luck....TC.

The county is Saline, and it looks to be right on the edge of GPR range. Western fox is not in this county. The habitat here in Saline county is pretty flat and no real big forests. Just sparsely wooded areas, mostly flat farm land with some rolling hills. Nothing like you would see in SE MO where I grew up.
Brian

>>I just reread your first post and saw that you already mentioned the location being in n.w. MO, my mistake. I would look at the range map again, for emoryi, because it's range just barely enters n.w. MO. (Can you give a county?) Also, the Western fox snake enters n.w. MO, and it would be interesting to note if you're in their range. It's possible neither of these two sps are in your location.
>>
>>Rethinking the taxonomy angle, depending on the location, sounds like the racers are being affected by the habitat rather than the genes, but it's possible they could have mixed genes still. Good luck....TC.
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian