Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok I think we all believe that snake have a instinct to not feed when conditions are not right. We are getting confused when everyone besides FR and a few others have their captives shut down at that time of year when outside conditions are not favorable toward digestion. This is part of what is leading us to believe that wild snakes are not feeding. FR's animals are eating for him so he doesn't have this notion.

What do each of you think would happen if we gave our captives a larger cage with depth and variation. For instance a 6 foot long by five foot deep by 34 inches wide (just so it still fits through a door). In that tank we had a cooling unit on one side of the bottom and got temps right on top of it down to 55. The inside of the cage has layers up four feet to a hot end baking temp of 110 degrees. That should give the upper level of 6 feet long 34 inches wide and one foot deep a good variance of temps.

Where do each of you believe a snake would spend its time in the following months and how would it feed?? January, April, July, and October. Assuming we followed the sunrise and set times for the the Carolinas and the temps stayed the same year round.

I understand it is not a real cage but I am more interested in your thoughts as kind of a exercise.

later Jason

I'll play...I do not know, hmmm, maybe they would move around a lot, every couple of days, probably avoiding the coolest areas if they could find a choice of moderate to higher temps which they would use for digestion, healing etc. I am not convinced they would go into a "deep sleep" in the cold end, atleast not for extended (weeks long) periods. This would be a fun experiment, whether it would teach us about wild behaviour or not is debatable, but it would offer the "choices" that FR speaks of. What say the brethren'? Vic in NorCal

I play with the idea of doing something like that some day. Sort of like a large ant farm for a colony of snakes. I honestly do not know what to think though after reading some of FRs posts but it will certainly be interesting to hear everybodys thoughts.

It's REAL cold here in N.J. now.It would be No problem keeping the lower level cold! LOL

Bob

BobS, your "ant farm" reference reminded me of a display I saw years ago at a well known zoological display near Tucson. I think they had some big C.atrox in it, and they could go underground into simulated burrows. I have no idea of temps, however. Have any of you tried such a vivarium, with a glass panel that allows access and cleaning? I vaguely remember lots of roaches living in those "burrows", so it must have been humid. I wonder if it worked out? Does it still exist? Anyone know? The more I think about this, the more I want to keep less animals but study behaviour more...

Now that is the best possible answer. For the record I am not sure what I think a snake or snake would do. It would be further interesting to see what two snakes from different regions would do. Like a Florida king in one right next to a Jersey King in the next. Perhaps a Az mountain king in one and a desert king in the next. Would the more tropical or more lowland snake be active longer??. Would they eat year round because they can?? Would they seek out the cold spot in mid summer to take a break?? Would the cage even keep temps properly ???lol

later Jason

hmmmm very interesting,,,,
imho a cage that size with temp.gradients that extreme would be one kick@$$ cage, and i dont beleive the snake would hibernate/brumate at all,nor do i beleive it would go off feed at all except during sheds,maybe, regardless of light cycles with that kinda temp.gradient there would be no need to go off feed,also ftr i beleive temperate zoned snakes only hibernate because they are forced to, adaptation is what its all about some of the northern ssp. have adapted to seasonal changes mo'betta than the southern ssp.but all can certainly thrive in adverse conditions because they know how to adapt.
so are you making this cage?i'd love to see it,,,great subject,,,,,,thomas davis

< so are you making this cage?i'd love to see it,>

No no I am honest enough to admit I am to lazy to try it but I would love to see it if anyone has more ambition than me. I like that you at least think about my silly ideas.

If you think they would kind of do the same thing year round in a set up like that what do you think would change their activity other than temp fluctuation?? Obviously a heavy spray down would do something but what?? I think that the light cycle would affect them some. I think feeding would slow down to every 10 to 20 days. That thought brings up another. How often would you offer food?? Every day, weekly, bi weekly? If the snake had full use of a temp gradient how often would it take food??

Another thought is breeding. Would the snakes breed normally or do they actually need a down time. If they didn't go to the cooler temps by choice would the egg and sperm production be affected??

Actually I may try this...maybe... still feeling a little to lazy but it would be interesting. I have a 6 high 4 wide and 34 inch deep tank on wheels with space below. I could make this happen since i have the box already it is just the schematics of how it would be put together.... hmmm

Oh crap i might actually try this...damn

later Jason

Certainly interesting to give a snake choices and see what happens.

I did a very watered-down version of this experiment last year. The low temps were not low enough, nor the high temps high enough to make it a better experiment. I measured temps of the snakes over time when kept in larger-than-sweaterbox cages while offering a choice of temps as best I could. The results were not very interesting, but my setup wasn't either.

I'll offer again the story of the 22-year old Cal king kept in a tank on a back porch in Cal king-friendly range. The snake and cage were protected from direct sun, rain and wind, but that is it. No external heat. The snake fed when it wanted, and didn't when it didn't want. It goes through far less food than a sweaterbox snake, and it doesn't regurgitate.

Jason, I personally think much has to do with the type of snake and even to some degree whether it is captive bred or wild caught. For example, I have set up enclosures not quite as large but definitely loaded with lots of options in the form of temps, substrates and hides with wc bull snakes from up north. Even tried manipulating the photo period. The result was, no matter the options available the snakes would go off food and hucker down in the winter months. CB snakes of all varieties I have kept have been much less demanding in this regard and it certainly raises questions on how much behavior is instinctual and how much is learned and where the two meet. Does a wc snake that has spent several winters in the wild have an internal clock telling it to shut down? I honestly don't know but something is going on for sure. In years past I have been able to keep wc nigra up through the winter but the results were always unsatisfying. Maybe a couple or three feedings through the winter and generally a stressed snake. I am much more content to give them what they want these days and all are better for it. I watch my wc snakes and there is a progression of events. Shortly after they start refusing food for the year there is increased activity and lots of roaming around the cages. After a couple of weeks of this they explore the various hides offered. At this point I start lowering temps and then put them in their winter quarters. Phil

Hey Phil,
I agree with you on everything but I am also curious if a cage was done right and all the options where there what would the snake do on its own?? Not what we observe and change because of what we see. The problem is giving a cage with the options available that a snake would be able to use. Since I made this hypothetical cage in my head for the sake of discussion I have got a little excited with the possibilities of what could be seen. It is not impossible by any means but it will take some work.

Granted a temp climb from 55 to 105 in a 5-6 foot tall cage may be difficult and not as realistic as you would need but it would be interesting to start there. If for instance you could see that the snakes get to a certain body weight and then start sitting near 60 degrees or if they instead stay near the heat and eat all you give them. You could test in a small way if FR is right about things. If you don't feed for three weeks will the snake go toward the bottom to keep his temps down or will it get more restless and search around the top for food??. Will that behavior change between time of year and the sex of the snake???

Any question you or I think of we can try to come up with answers with what we have seen in the wild and in our cages at home but I wonder if a cage in this style might give us some different answers. Are we right?? I m pretty sure if we wrote down 20 questions we would have very similar answers on at least 15 of them based on what we "know" but the thing is there is this old guy who is hinting that he might have different answers. He might be right and there may be a better way to keep or captives. If nothing else just the possibility of my snakes acting a little more wild in my home is exciting to me. I love the look my snakes get when I put in new branches and new substrate. That active curiosity that they get in searching out their cage. Anything that would give me a more natural wild snake is a good thing.

later Jason

What would you use for the cold end? Maybe one of those ice chests that plug into a vehicles cigarrette lighter.

My California Kingsnake has a water dish made for dogs or cats but that I insisted the pet store put in his cage about a week or so before I bought him. At that time, he was about the shed, and the store had given him only a tiny water dish that he couldn't possibly use to soak. They also weren't keeping the dish filled with water, and I hoped that a bigger dish would stay full longer. When I bought the snake, I bought the aquaium and most of his furniture including the water dish.

This snake really likes this dish and spends 99% of his time under the dish. Most of the time, he's able to curl himself completely under the dish. I can see the sides of belly scales when I look along the side of the dish, but I usually don't see anything else. Yesterday, I cleaned his cage, and something must be different. He's trying to hide under the dish, but about a coil and a half of his body are sticking out.

The point of saying these things is that I think this snake would hide under that dish no matter where I put it. If the snake ever escaped his cage, I half believe that I could just leave that dish somewhere and the snake would be under the dish in less than a day. I've thought about moving the dish around his cage, but I don't want to stress him. If I ever find more of these same kinds of dishes, I'm going to put another one in his cage just to see what he does.

If you ever build your giant cage, I'd recommend getting four or five of every hide, every water dish, and every climbing branch that you use and putting them in each temperature zone. That way, behavior variations will be about temperature differences and not about preferences for a particular kind of hide.

Overall, the project sounds very interesting. I like the idea of using those electric coolers to keep the cool side cool. The warm side temperature variations could be done with numerous heating pads with each having its own thermostatic control. If I have money for a dedicated snake room when I retire, I'll likely build bigger and better enclosures for my animals, and I'll incorporate some of these ideas just to give my animals more options for living.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.