Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i'd like to nominate FR as poster of the year and id like to personally thank him for all his insight about reptiles,everyone must admit FR has certainly opened some eyes,raised some eyebrows,and stirred the thinkin pot.sure he has offended some but only those imho with a closed mind. heres to ya frank
merry christmas and happy new year!
,,,,,,,,thomas davis

np

and I really enjoy reading his posts.

This site was going down hill real fast with the umpteen million eastern king pics. Now there is some real debate and some good meat to chew on. I also think he opened up the door for other people to post things like variable kings, pyros ect.

Thanks Frank!

or did you stop in time before you hit 'em?

i agree i feel like a born again ectotherm. i don't follow like a sheep or always agree with what's printed but the good posts (fr's and those that debate) have opened up a new realm of questions considerations and some ideas for new management practices.

btw Rainer, that sulfur male i acquired this past spring should be ready to go in '06. hum dinger.
dave b

I don't think you should blame the quality of the forum content on the people who are contributing pictures of their animals. You're right in that this forum was heading down the crapper, however, I believe that had more to do with the petty bickering, flaming and shot taking (like you are seemingly doing here) than because people posted about a particular type of animal. I do however seem to remember the multiple, positive hits that went along with those frequent eastern posts. If you don't find any interest in a posted animal, or like the poster, then it is your perogitive to ignore the post, not take shots at the poster. In addition, if you don't like the direction the forum is taking, then it is up to you, me and others who visit here to start making more frequent, positive contributions to add to the discussion (like Frank has), not taking away from them. This forum was often a snooze because those of us who had meaningful insights to contribute often didn't (finger pointing at self right now), not because people celebrated the animals that they kept.

However, I will cetainly agree that Frank has added tremendously to the quality of the discussion here. This place has improved in its diversity of topics and level of thought provocation since he started contributing. I have been visiting his monitor forum Varanus.net for a couple of years (I'm a closet varanophile) and I am truly a fan of his thought provoking posts. It is very refreshing to see someone at his level of success and experience that still finds the time to share day in and day out. Thanks Frank.

Will

PS - Rainer, here is another eastern for ya.....

Will

PS - Rainer, here is another eastern for ya.....

Hey Will don't take it so personal. HA HA HA HA HA!

Here is a nice picture to help you relax. Take a deep breath and smell the fresh air.

Well here Rainer maybe instead of [bleep]in about all the Eastern pics maybe you should post more of your own stock to drown us out. I personally think your jealous cause you cant keep Easterns because you live in Georgia and its against the law to own even one in that state...bummer
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The above Kings are nice but you must bow down to....

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Hey Rainer,

Actually, I'm very relaxed. I just felt the need to voice my opinion there. No stress and no worries. Nice picture by the way, where was it taken? Thanks.

Will

No problem here either Will. I have nothing against eastern kings except when to much is to much. I was just voicing my opinion and many others here.

The pic was taken at zonata country Bass Lake, Calif.

Oh I see

and

also

and further

Happy Holidays
pthpt

.

I don,t want to be a hypocrite and As much as my favorite snake is Gaigeae, a pure black plain, one color animal without much individuality by means of color. Sometimes I'm really glad to see the colorful Pyro pics! LOL

Mmmmmmm...Gaigeae I love em ! Mine should be coming very soon.

Keith
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OK

Love the pics Jason!!!! That red-orange on the greyband is awesome!!!! Thanks for posting

Pat

Their beauty is in their pure blackness. You have to hold onto these though Keith, Takes too long to raise em up. LOL

Now thats some nice color! Not that theres anything wrong with Black and White. LOL Pyro and graybands. Living Jewels!

well i think rainer is reffering to(i could be wrong though)is the literal floods of basic not meant offensive but plain easterns pictures posted kinda like corns ,i mean i am LAMPROPELTIS MAN with lgg being my fav. of ALL time but do get bored of repeated postings of common lookin lgg,pics i myself have several but few are worth imho posting over&over&over&over&over again on that note i must repost this ole pic of my dear friend CLEO and say i started this thread nominating FR for poster of year,,,,,,
anywhoo

did someone say black milk?,,,,,,,,thomas

I guess after seeing 300 variations of the wide banded north Fl /S.GA eastern it is that particular look that gets a little overdone on this site.

Now that brute Thomas posted is some eye~candy that no self respecting snake man cannot appreciate.

call that kind of triangulum sub? very, very nice!!!i wanna see them after they shed!

Thanks for the info Rainer, that picture is beautiful. That place looks like what my version of heaven would be.

Will

That pic did just that - made me relax.

BTW, the petty bickering has been rediculous. Zonata are way cooler than eastern kings

Thanks sir. I do hope to open eyes and hopefully help us keepers maintain an interest in our charges.

I am not sure about the closed minds. I think we all hit barriers or walls. Getting over or around those can be painful and very hard. So I offer direction and of course get hammered for it, hahahahahahaha. But really I do not mind, as my success and verification comes from my effords in the field and with captive animals. Not from other keepers, of course I am not against cheating and stealing their ideas, hehehehehehehehe.

Anyway thanks FR

A snake hunting trip to Ky in December! LOL, couldn't resist.

Seriously Frank thanks for all the snake discussion. It is a lot of fun and I do appreciate your message of exploring possibilities. We all get tunnel vision all too often, and its not always about who's right or wrong but maybe more importantly allowing ourselves to broaden our horizons. Phil

>>A snake hunting trip to Ky in December! LOL, couldn't resist.
>>
Frank could find snakes hiding in the corner of a round padded room in Antartica! December in KY would be like letting the wolve guard the sheep

Forks

Not only is that hilarious Forky, but it is equally correct! H

I hope he has a good day in Antarctica cause he ain't gonna find none today here in Ky.
Phil

but I was curious, so I checked the weather page for Kentucky.
This is out of Louisville, not sure where you are, but these conditions are nearly identical to what I'm seeing in San Antonio, and I KNOW I can find kings here now, so I bet I could find kings in KY this week, especially those days which approach 50 degrees.

www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USKY1096?from=36hr_topnav_undeclared

Not really anything I'd want to find there though, or would be willing to make the trip for.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these would be ideal conditions, but I just found this snake two days ago under nearly identical conditions to what you are seeing now.

Did you go out this past week and look? Just curious.

Forky

Subdued colors. Real nice picture. Wish we could all take pics like that. Thanks.

A few days with a high of 40F surrounded by cold fronts don't cut it here. You may have also noticed its going to be in the teens Monday morning. Think what you want, it matters not to me. You need to look further than isolated days with potential and look at trends. No offence, but if you were to come to Ky you might even find a BIG calligaster. You do know we have the largest right?

btw, yep, I get out ALL year round. This week, last week and next week. Phil

yes I heard your calligaster get at least 1/4" larger than they do in Texas - as far as we know at this time

Forks

Must be all those rats they are chowing down on in the winter when I'm not looking lol!

Seriously, I understand how you feel about Kentucky. Probably the same way I feel about Texas. There is no right or wrong here, just personal taste and interest. I may go to Texas one day or not. I have not been sufficiently motivated yet. Not because the herps there are not worth the trip but rather my focus is elsewhere. Maybe it all falls back to what we all grew up with that draws us the most.

Anyhow, don't get me wrong. I do appreciate your approach to this and agree with it. The moment you accept defeat in the field you are out of the game so to speak. Many of our greatest finds have come at the end of the day when we have exhausted all of our known resources but decided to persevere and explore new possibilities. That said I should mention I may not be over the hill but I have been around for awhile. I would not presume to tell a guy in another region that is a competent field herper about what he knows best. I'm not guessing that kingsnakes are not on the surface in Ky in winter, I'm telling you this based on decades of field work here. Do you think I have not looked before? If so, I can understand your thoughts on this. The reality is I spend a great deal time in the field all year long and over time with experience I have gotten pretty good at this and learned a few tricks myself. Not just AC but natural cover as well in addition to road cruising, hiking habitat, wading water courses, funnel traps etc.. I consider myself through trial and error over the years a master at the deployment of AC and I have the results to back this up. I'm the guy that finds snakes when other guys don't. Theres a good chance I have seen more kingsnakes in the field this year than anyone on this board and over the years there are probably few on here that have had comparable numbers. I love Franks message of exploring possibilities and I think its one all of us should subscribe to. It took me a while to grasp where he was coming from but I'm glad I took the time. Like Frank has said, its not about right and wrong but rather the willingness to drop old habits and look at things from a fresh perspective. Okay, not his exact words but you get the point haha. Anyhow, there is more than the temps in San Antonio and Louisville today as it relates to what the snakes are doing or not doing this time of year. Cheers, Phil

In reality,
all I said was "I bet I could find them" which alludes to "I know where they are".

I'll go out on a limb and say I bet you could find some right now if you really wanted to, but you wouldn't be looking in the same spots you normally do.

Anyway, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know about KY, am I?

Forky

I know where they are too. We have a number of early emergence records and last appearance for the year records in Ky for various species.

Of course I could break out a backhole and make it happen now but that wouldn't be the same

Theres a reason why we usually take a field herping trip to Florida in the winter. We find snakes and lots of them! You won't find them here though. At least not now.

Phil

Joe, I love that pic of the calligaster, but can't believe your distaste for KY, one of the most beautiful states, imo. I guess that means you'll never be visiting me in n. MI, eh...LOL??

You do remember FR talking about "mass temps", right? Well the northern states have mass temps too. Fifty degrees in TX is not the same as 50*F in the north, because of this. Underground temps build up. Texas is so hot it takes a longggg time to cool down. Take some temps below ground right now and see what they are. Temps below ground in KY are much different. The many cooling days means that temps here are going to be cooler underground than the snakes need for activity. So, even though it may hit 50* above ground in Dec, the snakes are cooler than that underground, and they aren't going to be able to find a place to feed and digest. TX is a different matter. Who knows how long it's going to take for the temps to be cooler underground than the snakes need to be surface active?

Thanks for listening...TC

>>but I was curious, so I checked the weather page for Kentucky.
>>This is out of Louisville, not sure where you are, but these conditions are nearly identical to what I'm seeing in San Antonio, and I KNOW I can find kings here now, so I bet I could find kings in KY this week, especially those days which approach 50 degrees.
>>

Not going to happen

nothing personal against KY or the east, I just have a preference for the SW and Mexico.

Oh, and I said nothing about Feeding.... I said I bet I could find them That's all, and while there is a possibility that I may not be able to find them, I believe that I can, and I have an open mind about both possibilities. This is the first critical step in order to be able to find them. Think outside the box my friend.

While KY may not be FL or TX, it's not MI either... it's somewhere in between.

Forks

Joe, sorry about the feeding reference.

I think I'm thinking outside the box. Obviously, it's difficult for northerners to think about what it's like to be herping in the south in winter, and it's also difficult for southerners to understand how the northerners think about winter. I'm wondering if it isn't even harder for those down south. I'm just trying to make a point about the differences in ground temps.

While I'll try to keep an open mind about the fact that kings might be active near the surface in KY, hopefully, you guys will keep an open mind about the fact that subterranean temps are colder in northern states than in southern. I know KY is inbetween, but from Phil's accounts, it's more like MI than like TX. I don't expect the ground is as cold, but I'm sure they have a frost line there too, just not as deep.

No offense taken, Joe, and hope you don't find my posts to be like that. Just trying to work at areas that need investigating. Thanks....Terry

but let me take some text from your previous reply to illustrate my point, one that you and Phil are both adament regarding....

quote:

>Take some temps below ground right now and see what they are. >Temps below ground in KY are much different. The many cooling >days means that temps here are going to be cooler underground >than the snakes need for activity. So, even though it may hit >50* above ground in Dec, the snakes are cooler than that >underground,

end quote:

In a situation like this, is it or is it not possible (some) snakes may adjust positioning (nearer or even on the surface)?

It is my contention that they most definately will. It is helpful to remember I said "I bet I could find them" ... and nothing about them "feeding".

Forky

>>>Take some temps below ground right now and see what they are. >Temps below ground in KY are much different. The many cooling >days means that temps here are going to be cooler underground >than the snakes need for activity. So, even though it may hit >50* above ground in Dec, the snakes are cooler than that >underground,
>>
>>end quote:
>>
>>
>>In a situation like this, is it or is it not possible (some) snakes may adjust positioning (nearer or even on the surface)?
>>

This question definitely makes one think From my experience here in n. MI the ground starts to freeze around the beginning of Dec. every year. Even if it gets to 50*F (extremely rare and very temporary) on the surface the snakes don't seem to have a reason for going there, and if the ground is frozen they would have a hard time getting to the surface.

Snakes would move to 50* if it were an optimal temp and they could accomplish something by going there (it's actually a good temp for brumating). But experienced snakes go quite deep in winter here, and avoid the surface, because that most often would result in their demise. Inexperienced young snakes hang closer to the surface, which is the reason for such a high mortality of juve snakes in MI. I assume similar conditions occur in KY, except not quite as early. Their first ground frost might not be until mid-Dec, or so.

I'm also assuming snakes hang near the surface in TX, when the temps are around 50*, because underground temps aren't much different, and because there may be other opportunities, such as to feed or drink. Fifty degree air temp can equate to a much warmer basking temp as discussed in FR's recent post. Anyway, I am open minded, just trying to deal with info I think is important, as well as possibilities I haven't considered until now. Still looking for warmer temps underground in winter in MI. Later...TC

< In a situation like this, is it or is it not possible (some) snakes may adjust positioning (nearer or even on the surface)?>

The answer is YES! Telemetry backs this up. But on the surface is another matter. There has been special circumstances on occasion here like major flooding in which many creatures snakes included have been flushed out of their hibernacula and onto the surface. Please remember these every ten year events are anomoly's and not the rule. Also remember rain is not snow. These are exceptional warm weather deluges in winter with massive flooding. Like I have mentioned before there are some Natracines that surface now and again in the typical winter here but not most snakes. I know this may be hard for you fella's way down south to imagine this, but this is the way it is here.

Its not as bad as it sounds. 60 and 70 snake days are not unusual here in the spring and the salamanders and frogs help greatly in making the cold months interesting for us here. Phil

quote:

Forky

Joe, I may have been a little one sided in my reply yesterday to your last post. Let me have another look at your question from a more positive perspective.

I may have been influenced too much by my knowledge of Michigan winters. I don’t have much personal experience with Kentucky winters, so I was assuming that the same conditions occur there under the temps we experience here in MI. I know it’s going to be different overall, just as it is different from southern states like Texas. I know if I don’t allow the possibility of snake movement in winter there it’s the end of our conversation about it. The problem is neither you nor I can verify anything or go there and look for ourselves. I do have some experience living in southern Ohio for three years, however, and I started thinking about that, as being more like Kentucky, and I think I might be able to come up with some possibilities for snake activity after all.

In a situation like this, is it or is it not possible (some) snakes may adjust positioning (nearer or even on the surface)?

First, I will tell you that I never found any snakes in Ohio in the months of Dec-Jan. I did, however, find amphibians in those months. The reason is that the climate in s.e. OH is much better than the climate in n. MI for movement of animals in general. Also, I noticed that we generally had a warmup in mid-February each of the three seasons I was there. This thawing and warmer temps, usually 50’s, or so, would bring some herps to the surface. This was mostly amphibians, I was into salamanders back then, but I also saw a couple garter snakes, I think. In general, the temperatures in s. OH were warm enough in mid winter that there wasn’t very much snow on the ground. ASAMOF, it hardly ever snowed there, unless a big front came through, and then we got as much as 16 inches in one day. Usually it melted off in a few days as temps hovered above 32*F eventually. Under these conditions amphibians/salamanders were possible to find, especially in certain places. I usually found them in protected ravines in or near streams.

Considering what I know about s. OH, I would say it’s possible that certain snakes are closer to the surface in KY than in MI. Are there places that are better than others and where opportunistic snakes might be very close to the surface and possibly visible if there were some kind of window. Knowing where you and FR are coming from, Joe, I understand you would definitely say, yes! Personally, I’d have to work at it, but I think I could come up with areas that were much more possible than others. The question is, how could we come up with a window into their world to see what they were doing. Remembering FR’s last suggestion about creating a hole with plexiglass over it for viewing, I think that would be a good idea. Also, I would surely check out some rock outcroppings for signs of life.

I know that snakes move to near the surface when it gets close to their emergence time. They get better temps at that time when there are warming days and the surface is starting to warm up. I also think there is a period of time when the surface temps are not going to warm up and it wouldn’t be possible for you to view any snakes. In other words, an increase to 50*, or more, would not bring any snakes to the surface.

In the future, with global warming, I can see some possibilties for climatic change, and maybe then things will be different. We also have to remember that winters vary. Some winters the snakes need to be lower in the earth than others. If we ever have a winter so warm that it thaws the earth and raises substrate temps to tolerable temps for snakes, then I know the vertical movement will occur.

So, in summary, I can imagine a few possible scenarios where snakes might come near to the surface in KY, in any month of the year, but in reality I don’t think anyone is going to be able to see that in mid-winter. I would concentrate on the months leading to winter, such as late Nov, early Dec, or sometime in Feb, to try to show vertical movement of snakes under winter conditions in KY.

Sorry for being long winded and fluctuating so much. Just working the different angles for the reason of keeping open lines of communication. I understand the process you guys are talking about, and that it works in many states, but I also understand there’s a limit to that process and sometimes favorable air temps don’t help the surface temps of any substrate to be more favorable for any snakes.

Thanks for listening… TC

Terry,
I think that it's worth communicating about. I also think there are real possibilities.

Further, I think Phil is taking this very personally, as evidenced by his need to throw out his credentials and numbers of Kingsnakes found in the field. It is my (opinion) that those numbers only add credence to my theory that it is possible to locate kingsnakes on the surface and under cover during December in KY. I didn't say every single day in December, and I didn't say how many Kingsnakes, and I didn't say under what cover (I'm not going to spell it out everyone, but the cover is / would be artificial). Just one King would prove me right.

This is really not an impossible feat. Especially given that nature is dynamic. Phil almost admitted (almost) that there are certain events that will occur from time to time (rarely) that would make this scenario very likely. That would be a good time to look, but that's not even what I'm looking for.

And still further, Phil falls back on history to predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen in the future (Decembers). That is without a doubt faulty reasoning.

Finding snakes is less about being some great Fieldherper, than it is about being out LOOKING. NOT finding snakes is as Frank has pointed out many times over simply a lack of data and proof of nothing.

There are a lot of folks out there that will tell you that you can't find Kingsnakes in December in San Antonio. While that is generally a correct statement, it is in fact a generalization, and the proof of that is the snake I found on the 14th.

Folks will also tell you that Gray-bands don't move nocturnally in late November. Most of the time that would be correct, but the DOR I found a few weeks ago proves this to be a generalization as well.

A couple of years ago a friend and I found a new species to science in the most surveyed spring in Central Texas! What are the odds. 100 years of prior exploration failed to reveal something that was right there (for a very good reason).

In September I found a Barking Frog in Brewster county, the first ever known from that county. 150 or 200 years of surveys in that county failed to reveal that as well.

I have more examples as well, but I'll stop but because this is not about tooting my own horn, this is about something very simple, and you can bet your bootie if I ever do cross KY in December I'll have my camera.

This is just an exercise in futility really, because some folks are set in the ways. That's fine, I don't need to try and convince anyone that isn't willing to listen. I have nothing to gain other than an "I told you so".

I'm also not even going to go into Ohio or MI and expect to be able to find anything in December, but KY is another matter. Before I made that statement I checked historical data for Decembers in KY for the past 10 years and given something simple I learned a long time ago about a certain scenario I came to the conclusion it wouldn't be difficult at all. It might take me some time to find the situation I'm looking for, but then the only question will be if it's a kingsnake under there or another species.

I'm not trying to say how much I know about snakes or kingsnakes, in fact, to the contrary, the older I get, the more I realize how little I know! There is one thing I do know though, as soon as I start speaking in absolutes, I will be proven wrong.

I can't believe I typed this much about this, comical really, but I wouldn't need a backhoe to find a KY King in December.
Phil can have the last word on the frozen tundra that is KY in December, I don't care.

Joe, thanks for the post. I'm glad you typed that much myself. Sometimes I get self conscience because I tend to get long winded, but I also tend to get at details and the big idea, if I'm really interested. I hope that's good for some folks. I know there are probably those that resent some of the things I say and think I talk way too much. But you don't have to please everybody. I always say, if one person is listening, at least I've taught somebody, and now there's more of us.

It's very difficult to never get personal. I almost always am trying to not get personal or offend anyone, but it happens from time to time. I think Phil is a pretty cool herper, nice guy, and all that. I think he's done a lot to be understanding and work with the ideas you guys have presented (always including FR). I would herp with him in a minute and you too for that matter, but that doesn't mean we will always agree with everything. I'm sure I'd have differences with anyone I spent time with and shared ideas. We can't help it. But it's my belief that it's the idea that's most important. I've come to see your idea(s) as a process or scientific principle. It's a principle that works, providing the conditions allow. It doesn't always work obviously. We can always find exceptions one way or the other. But it's a principle I'm now buying into also and I'm going to try to make it work.

BTW, I've thought of some artificial conditions that might bring certain snakes to the surface, providing the local climate was cooperating at the time too

TC

Phil and Terry, lend a tolerable ear to what Joe and Frank are laying down. At least keep an open mind or we may have to organize a road trip according to the event Joe is speaking of happening in Dec. And what exactly would it take to convince you guys? Would one kingsnake be enough or would it have to be an insanely high number? Fluke or proof? It would be the data that Frank is asking you to find. I told you a few posts back about a non-kingsnake in my area that congregates in the winter months. The biggest baddest colubrid in the U.S., that was out therming and it's mate chasing, and very quickly Imight add, a cotton rat.(very quick animal) It happens here, it is a subtropical animal on the outside perimeter of its' range, and adapting to its' environment. I find many subadult desert kings on the Island here in Jan.- Feb. but no adults. Seems the young ones come out to therm, drink, and eat whatever is around. I've seen coachwhips out in these conditions, and last year even an atrox crossing the snow on the 27th of Dec. Stuff happens and I like the way Joe put it, nature is dynamic! When we get it all boxed up neat and tidy, they will show us something else. Thank God not everyone can find them all the time or there would be none left! Keep an open mind, and yes it is way different where you two are compared to where we are but, they do the same things in order to survive, and where Phil is, they aren't just surviving, they are thriving, as evidenced in the many photos of many snakes in many counties found on many different days. Sorry so long!
Todd Hughes

Joe, dang it, I just knew it I would come off sounding like I was talking up my creds. That was certainly not my intent. Those that know me best know I'm a really humble guy. Anyhow, the reason I went through all that was to simply point out that my ideas are not assumptions but rather based on many years experience. If I never went out in field in the cold months and simply made assumptions that would be one thing. However this is not the case as like I mentioned I go out all year long, even in the winter. My focus this time of year is amphibians and developing new tin sites, but I check much of the same cover I find snakes under in the spring. I agree nature is a dynamic and the unusual happens somewhere in this great world of ours every day. I'm not trying to tell you that in the history of the world a kingsnake has never seen the light of day in a Ky winter. I was more relating to you that I haven't seen one in the many years that I have been herping in Ky and if it hasn't happened for me I would be doubtful it would happen for you Frank or anyone else. I will not say its impossible, but I would say its VERY unlikely based on what I have seen. I take none of this personal and to me its all in fun. I did find it odd that you basically said that someone else could come here and find one now. To me this implies that you are saying that me and my methods are incompetant. So yes, I did feel a need to refute this and give some background on me and what it is that I do. No more, no less.

Todd, keeping an open mind is a two way street. I think Terry and I have demonstrated that we are willing to accept possibilities. From where I'm standing it looks to me that some of the other folks in this discussion are unwilling to accept the information that Terry and I are providing. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm relating to all what is going on here. Why is it that some on here are so convinced that all snakes in all places are doing the same things at all times? Why should they? The only evidence anyone has supplied on here to back this up is implying that Terry and I are completely lost and somehow our methods are faulty. Thats not much of an argument if you ask me. btw, my bud Will is heading down to Florida next week to hopefully find and photograph Indigo's. Dang, sure wish I had the week off.

Terry, I'm beginning to think this is an exercise in futility lol! At this rate we'll never be able to move forward to the next topic of discussion.

Phil

To me this implies that you are saying that me and my methods are incompetant. So yes, I did feel a need to refute this and give some background on me and what it is that I do. No more, no less.

No! Sorry it you got that, but please don't read insinuations into my comments, take them at face value. This conversation is about what I think, (and I've already stated that I am open to the possibility I couldn't find a Kingsnake), not about you being incompetent! See Phil you read too much into that.

Todd, keeping an open mind is a two way street. I think Terry and I have demonstrated that we are willing to accept possibilities. From where I'm standing it looks to me that some of the other folks in this discussion are unwilling to accept the information that Terry and I are providing. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm relating to all what is going on here. Why is it that some on here are so convinced that all snakes in all places are doing the same things at all times? Why should they?

No again! Can you quote me on any of that? Once again you are reading into the conversation more than what is there! Not all snakes are doing the same things all the time in all different places. LOL - c'mon Phil, I've been very careful not to talk absolutes.

The only evidence anyone has supplied on here to back this up is implying that Terry and I are completely lost and somehow our methods are faulty. Thats not much of an argument if you ask me.

No. Here's how I see it. I offered up my opinion, and even worded it in such a way (I bet) yet you offer up a lack of evidence to support why it will never happen!!?? See what I mean? I offered up anecdotal evidence to support my opinion, yet you are absolute that my opinion has no value. At least that's how I see your position.

Ok, that's pretty much it for me, now you can have the last word.

Forky

>>Terry, I'm beginning to think this is an exercise in futility lol! At this rate we'll never be able to move forward to the next topic of discussion.
>>
>>Phil

It is clear that we are getting no where with all of this and that is okay. That is one of the things about a message board is its limitations as as a means of communication. Maybe we have a different interpretaion of the words we use, but this is what I am seeing from you.

< Frank could find snakes hiding in the corner of a round padded room in Antartica! December in KY would be like letting the wolve guard the sheep >

Read into it what you want but its clear that the message here is you implying that someone else could easily accomplish what I have been unable to do. Right or wrong its very insulting.

< so I bet I could find kings in KY this week, especially those days which approach 50 degrees. >

More of the same. I think this was on the same post that you mentioned in so many words there wasn't much in Ky you wanted to see anyhow. What ever!

< "I bet I could find them" which alludes to "I know where they are". >

Once again implies that I DON'T know how to find them and DON'T know where they are yet you do, and if only you had the sufficient motivation you would come up here and show me where my snakes are.

< And still further, Phil falls back on history to predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen in the future (Decembers). That is without a doubt faulty reasoning. >

Hows this? I simply stated that in all the years I have been going out I have not seen kingsnakes on the surface in the winter in Ky. There is a difference between making predictions and proving them out, which has not failed me yet.

< Finding snakes is less about being some great Fieldherper, than it is about being out LOOKING. NOT finding snakes is as Frank has pointed out many times over simply a lack of data and proof of nothing. >

I have mentioned many times over and over I go out all year. Could it be that just maybe they are not doing what you think they are? Not finding them on the surface means nothing more than that. Its as if what you are saying is we have no proof since our results are not to your liking.

< This is just an exercise in futility really, because some folks are set in the ways. That's fine, I don't need to try and convince anyone that isn't willing to listen. I have nothing to gain other than an "I told you so". >

Whats this set in their ways bit? You have lost me on this. No matter how many times we may want the results to be different, in the end they are what they are. Again, its not as if we haven't searched. Why is this so difficult to understand?

< but I wouldn't need a backhoe to find a KY King in December.
Phil can have the last word on the frozen tundra that is KY in December, I don't care. >

Again you are telling us all about something you have no first hand experience of (Ky) and saying you could come here and accomplish what none of us have been able to. Sure sounds like a bold statement to me and again loaded with demeaning talk.

Now a few quotes from myself in this discussion,

< We all get tunnel vision all too often, and its not always about who's right or wrong but maybe more importantly allowing ourselves to broaden our horizons. >

< New discoveries are only found if we go outside the accepted bounds. I'm sure I am guilty of this at times like most of us are. Sometimes we all need to step back from something and put preconceived notions aside and start anew. >

< That is a great idea you have and one I will employ. You may think I am resistent to new ideas but I'm not really. Thats one of the main reasons I enjoy these conversations actually. No doubt I have a system of beliefs based on my personal experiences and though I don't always agree with some of what you say, by far (to me at least) the best thing you bring here is encouraging us all open our minds to possibilities. >

I think its clear that yes I do have clear ideas based upon my experiences I am open to explore possibilities.

Again, in nature things happen for a reason. There would need to be a motivating factor for a kingsnake to be on the surface in Ky during the winter. I can't think of even one. I don't think its coincidence that I have not seen one under those circumstances. Why would I? Phil

>>It is clear that we are getting no where with all of this and that is okay. That is one of the things about a message board is its limitations as as a means of communication. Maybe we have a different interpretaion of the words we use, but this is what I am seeing from you.
>>
>>< Frank could find snakes hiding in the corner of a round padded room in Antartica! December in KY would be like letting the wolve guard the sheep >
>>
>>Read into it what you want but its clear that the message here is you implying that someone else could easily accomplish what I have been unable to do. Right or wrong its very insulting.

No, this was a joke about Frank! At least Hugh found it funny. You've never met Frank, and you've never herped with Frank, I have, so you'll have to take my word for it.

>>< so I bet I could find kings in KY this week, especially those days which approach 50 degrees. >
>>
>>More of the same. I think this was on the same post that you mentioned in so many words there wasn't much in Ky you wanted to see anyhow. What ever!

Yes you still haven't convinced me that I couldn't find a single King in KY during December, especially after I went back over historical records for the past 10 years. I saw some things which led me to believe I can do it. Once again this is less about what you can't do, and more about what I think I can do.

As far as not really wanting to Herp in KY, or there being nothing in KY I'd like to find, you said the same about Texas, so what? I'm not grilling you over the fire because you prefer KY over Texas! What ever! Touche!

>>< "I bet I could find them" which alludes to "I know where they are". >
>>
>>Once again implies that I DON'T know how to find them and DON'T know where they are yet you do, and if only you had the sufficient motivation you would come up here and show me where my snakes are.
>>
>>< And still further, Phil falls back on history to predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen in the future (Decembers). That is without a doubt faulty reasoning. >
>>
>>Hows this? I simply stated that in all the years I have been going out I have not seen kingsnakes on the surface in the winter in Ky. There is a difference between making predictions and proving them out, which has not failed me yet.
>>
>>< Finding snakes is less about being some great Fieldherper, than it is about being out LOOKING. NOT finding snakes is as Frank has pointed out many times over simply a lack of data and proof of nothing. >
>>
>>I have mentioned many times over and over I go out all year. Could it be that just maybe they are not doing what you think they are? Not finding them on the surface means nothing more than that. Its as if what you are saying is we have no proof since our results are not to your liking.
>>
>>< This is just an exercise in futility really, because some folks are set in the ways. That's fine, I don't need to try and convince anyone that isn't willing to listen. I have nothing to gain other than an "I told you so". >
>>
>>Whats this set in their ways bit? You have lost me on this. No matter how many times we may want the results to be different, in the end they are what they are. Again, its not as if we haven't searched. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The only thing that you have convinced me of at this time is that you can't find them in December! So what you are saying is that if you can't find them, no one else can, because you are the greatest KY herper of all time!?? I get it now... If Phil can't do it, no one can! haha - that's the jest of what you are saying, right?

>>< but I wouldn't need a backhoe to find a KY King in December.
>>Phil can have the last word on the frozen tundra that is KY in December, I don't care. >
>>
>>Again you are telling us all about something you have no first hand experience of (Ky) and saying you could come here and accomplish what none of us have been able to. Sure sounds like a bold statement to me and again loaded with demeaning talk.
>>
>>Now a few quotes from myself in this discussion,
>>
>>< We all get tunnel vision all too often, and its not always about who's right or wrong but maybe more importantly allowing ourselves to broaden our horizons. >
>>
>>< New discoveries are only found if we go outside the accepted bounds. I'm sure I am guilty of this at times like most of us are. Sometimes we all need to step back from something and put preconceived notions aside and start anew. >
>>
>>< That is a great idea you have and one I will employ. You may think I am resistent to new ideas but I'm not really. Thats one of the main reasons I enjoy these conversations actually. No doubt I have a system of beliefs based on my personal experiences and though I don't always agree with some of what you say, by far (to me at least) the best thing you bring here is encouraging us all open our minds to possibilities. >
>>
>>I think its clear that yes I do have clear ideas based upon my experiences I am open to explore possibilities.
>>
>>Again, in nature things happen for a reason. There would need to be a motivating factor for a kingsnake to be on the surface in Ky during the winter. I can't think of even one. I don't think its coincidence that I have not seen one under those circumstances. Why would I? Phil

That's great Phil, In some paragraphs you say how open you are to new possibilities, yet you say with certainty that If you hadn't found one yet in December, then there's no way it will ever happen. That doesn't sound very open minded to me. Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

You yourself are making a pretty bold statement by taking everyone else to task and basically saying that it can't be done if the great KY herper Phil can't do it. So who is insulting who? Either we just have different ideas, or you are as insulting to me as I am to you. It's a two way street.

Hey, Todd, if anyone could come up to KY and catch a kingsnake in Dec. that's on or visible from the surface which is not dead and there of its own free will, I'd be convinced. I saw an Eastern garter snake in January, 9 or 10 yrs. ago, crawling across the snow in northern MI, but it had been flushed out of a mammal burrow by flood waters. There was also a number of dead garters that had frozen from not getting deep enough. It was 55*F, the warmest temp ever in Jan. since I've been here.

I think we have to be open-minded and never say never, but I also think that works both ways. I think folks have to realize how the cold has a negative affect on the snakes also, not just how they can remain active.

I have a w/c desert king in my collection that I've had an interesting experience with. She was with my partner last winter, but I got her at the end of summer, 2005. She's close to being adult. Well, about 3 weeks ago, she regurged a hopper that I had fed her. It was the 2nd time doing that. She had extra heat, but the room temp is lower this time of year. She also was roaming her cage a lot, but I thought I could keep her active. Finally she rubbed her snout raw and I gave up and put her in the spare bathroom at 63-67*F. Now she's happy as a lark.

Sometimes I think they don't want to eat. They do what they need to do to survive and what's best for them. Like I said before our snakes can go months w/o eating and be perfectly healthy. That's not to say they wouldn't be active at all or even partake in a little warming at times. I'm sure you see a lot of snakes in Jan. in s. TX where you're at. And didn't you say they weren't adults, but usually young or subadults? I wonder what's up with that? What are the adults doing?

Why don't we compromise and say that there's more than one way to spend the winter...LOL? Let's see some pics of those island kings this winter TC

Well, I had to drive 2 hrs but I did find 2 splendidas and a hognose....at Joe's house! LOL! Seriously, I can believe that it is too cold to find a king in Ky. on the surface, but what we are aluding to is finding them under a piece of ac that would hold a mass temp on one of those days that approach 50 degrees. They should come up to the surface and press their backs against the ac and suck up some heat on their backs. If the rat snakes in the well move up and down the well, they are therming, using the gradient to get what they need, and I see no reason for this not to happen with the kings. I don't believe it was stated that we would or could find one visible on the surface, but on the surface under ac. That beautiful speck I found last Feb. was under a layer of vinyl flooring and it was cold as heck! Why couldn't I find any more? Dunno. I did find that one and it was because I looked in a place I never looked before, a hunch. I will allow that you haven't found any kings in Dec. without a backhoe, but I will not yet believe that finding one therming under ac on the ground or above the ground isn't possible. I guess I will join you next winter for a trip and while you hunt 'phibs, I'll make an ass out of myself on a day that is 50 or so looking for the impossible! If we can put a man on the moon......! This year I have added many snakes to the life list simply because I looked where I was told and where I was told they were not. I explored places I never even heard of until this year as I passed through them. Texas has all these neat little picnic areas, rest stops, and I have found ringnecks, mud turtles and g.p.rats all under the same ac behind these rest stops. I love this forum and all the characters, especially me! Hope to meet up with you soon and set an arctic snake hunt with you Phil. And noone is doubting that you and Will are the Kentucky kings! Your data is rock solid for finding them all over Ky. I just want a crack at finding one in winter not to say I told you so, but so you can see the other angle we are working you towards. If we told you, it would be I told you so. Frank as much as told you where you would most likely find them, but you didn't think around the corner. I would look for those rock ledges with the right exposure and at the monmouth caverns, but that's not even what we are alluding to. Think! ac, mass temps, not tin!
Todd Hughes

Hi Todd, a few things I should mention about the conditions here in the winter to maybe give you an idea of how its like. On days which will be clear such as today is when the temps are at their coldest. It is 18F while I am typing this. Yes it will be sunny today and warm to around 30F or so. Have you ever noticed that at this time of year the sun angles are completely different than in the spring, summer and fall? This is even more pronounced as you move north. Here even on a sunny day in mid winter the trajectory of the sun gives only a glancing angle towards anything on the ground, and even rocks, tin, rubber mats or anything else get very little warming from the sun even at mid day. The warmer days here will be the cloudy ones in which the cloud cover insulates the air beneath the clouds and to the ground. Though on days like that it may get into the 40'sF or on rare occasions higher there are no hot spots. In the winter here there is usually fairly small differences between the highs and the lows. So we don't have conditions where it may be freezing at night but warm to the 60'sF during the day during our coldest months. Of course there are times when we might have unseasonable warm spells for a few days at this time of year and I have even seen it in the 70'sF before. These are always book ended by cold weather events though. I have mentioned seeing a few Natricines at these times. I have found snakes under cover in the early spring (or even late winter technically) but at this time the sun angles are more favorable to warming things up and there is usually greater extremes between the highs and lows. The other thing to consider is to what benefit is there for our snakes to come to the surface during the winter here. I can see no advantage for this and I'm convinced they are very capable of pursuing all their important behavioral events in the spring, summer and fall. I'm not sure what you mean by Frank convincing me to look around the corner though. I like Franks message of keeping an open mind and I do think its one all of us can benefit from. Exploring possibitities is something we should all do and that is what I took from all of that. To use a word that Frank often uses, consider this. Through the Ky winters for decades I have explored possibilities. I have looked at untold numbers of various types of artificial and natural cover, hiked through habitat and what I am reporting to you guys is the results of what I have found. I don't like speaking in finite terms or in absolutes and I will not say its impossible to find a kingsnake here at this time. But I will say that based upon exhaustive search here at this time my conclusion is it is very unlikely. Well, I'm off to the woods. Wish me luck! Phil

and I will not say its impossible to find a kingsnake here at this time. But I will say that based upon exhaustive search here at this time my conclusion is it is very unlikely. Well, I'm off to the woods. Wish me luck! Phil

That is not what you are typing to me, and this is EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you, it's not impossible! sheesh.

Instead you get off on the how insulting I am tangent. Why didn't you just type that to me and we'd be done by now!

Forky

Joe, its apparent to me that for what ever reason we are just not connecting somehow. Maybe its what I read into what you are writing and what you read into what I write, I don't really know. Anyhow, no biggie on my end. I'm sure its as much a miscommunication thing as any. Wouldn't be the first time on these forums lol! I can see that this will have no positive result and we are going in different directions so with that I don't see any sense in dragging this out further. Best regards and I wish you the well. Phil

After following most of these threads I thinks it is worth mentioning that even if somebody no matter what part of the country they're in, finds even 100 snakes or 100 family groups of snakes that are active year round does not prove there are not other snakes or family groups of snakes even on the next hill over that are not active year round.
Personally I think there are family groups that use prime locations that allow winter engagement of life event activity and that there are other family groups that exist in locations where these events are primarily accomplised before and after the winter with only very low activity actually during the winter. To me it just makes sense that if some snakes are physiologically capable of hibernating then why would they not also exist in areas where it is required.
Has anybody studied whether there are chemicals released by snakes which allow them to hibernate and whether these chemicals are present in greater quantities in snakes from certain areas? Venom composition has been shown to be different in rattlesnakes from different localities within the same species. Could not the same be true for snakes that overwinter in different localities?

That was not meant as a response to you, just my general thoughts on the subject and yours happened to be the last post I read.

Chemical cues? I honestly don't know of any work that has been done on that but you may well be on to something. There are motivating factors that seemingly make snakes behave the way they do in different areas. There are things going on in nature that I can not define. Yet at the same time I know they occur. I do not need confirmation from the people that frequent this board. Perspective is everything Aaron, and all I can do relate to the good folks here why there is no need for snakes to be on the surface here in Dec and to tell them that my experience has proved this out. Not assumptions but field work. This whole thing is really getting absurd to me. I have people telling me all this crap about how they or someone they know could come up here and find stuff now and so on and so forth. All I can say is bring it on! Talk is cheap and if the truth be known I could walk down to their backyards tomorrow and find more than they could. If any of you had any idea how ridiculous this whole thing was you would be laughing out loud like I am. Whats sad is at least a few of you are actually buying into the this and scratching your heads wondering. I don't consider myself the GREAT KY HERPER like Joe stated but I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck yesterday either. Its sad that there are clicks on here with the same mentality and they will not accept the results of others research and coincidentally they all reside in the southwest. Believe or not, I don't really care. Thats their gain or loss in developing a better understanding of things they do not know but I do. Anyhow Aaron, there are lots of interesting things that we could talk about here but we can't seem to get past people telling me they know more than me about the snakes I've been studying for 30 years. Phil

I wasn't refering to chemical cues, I was refering to something like "anti-freeze" that maybe released in the blood or tissues of a snake and which could be measured and if snakes had anything like that. I thought I read somewhere about salamanders having something like that.
I think the broadest interpretation of "engaging in important life events" could include something as subtle as a brief underground roll call to make sure potential mates are still alive and in good health or to check for reproductive condition.

Maybe todays the day lol!
todays weather

C'mon Joe, get real. All in fun Joe. Sometimes we take ourselves too serious.
Phil
Your place

your last record of the year AKAIK is November 21st.
that's ten days away from a December record.

Our differences in this whole thread are hinging on a difference of ten days (any given year).

That does seem pretty silly.

Since you live in KY, you obviously have a much better chance to find that record than I do, living in San Antonio.

I'm not saying TODAY. I hate to have to repeat myself, but surely you can beat your previous record by 10 days or more ONE of these coming Decembers?

Black Kings are a fairly common snake, what did you find 64 this year? In how many different counties? We're not talking about KY Pines here Phil. Oh and if accidently is a calligaster, well that counts too.

I'm sorry, but it still seems incredulous to me. I never said anything about ACTIVE or FEEDING, I said FINDING under A/C. They are under something, this much we agree on. I'm not talking about a flimsy piece of tin either.

I don't understand where, or rather how we can be so far apart on this point?

Forks

Sorry about that Joe. I think I understand what you are saying now and I guess the confusion was on my end. I have been using Dec as an example of winter, but not all Dec's are the same here. Sometimes our winters start out as warmer than usual and wetter. I think in one of those years it may be entirely possible to find a king in early Dec. It would be a tough find but I think it is possible. Other years like this one Dec has been dry and cold. I don't think it will happen for us this year. I was using Dec as another term for winter, and this lack of clarity was on my end. What I should have said and what I meant was once the winter settles in I find it very unlikely to see one. What usually happens here is once the winter comes its here for a while. This year it came early as in late Nov, in some years it may not come until well into Dec. At that point we can expect generally miserable weather for quite a while usually until around early March. Then the weather kind of goes back and forth. Anyhow, I think I see what you are saying now and maybe why we were not understanding each other. I know of a calligaster that was found here in Ky in early Dec during an unseasonable warm wet rain. This year we found 72 live nigra in the field and a number of DOR. Our last for this year was Oct 31st though we did see a few other snakes into Nov including rats and milks. Again sorry, I think the confusion was on my end and the and how I used Dec to represent the winter. Phil

I think we are on the same page now.... or at most only one page apart.

I'm still thinking in terms of the calligaster record you just mentioned during the warmer rain, but at least I think we now basically agree.

Forky

As long as we're looking at the records for the extremes, latest and earliest records, I have a record for the Eastern massasauga for February in Michigan. It was kind of a freak warm spell, but it was warm enough to bring them out on Feb 28th, many yrs. ago. I also have records for the Eastern garter for Michigan for every month, except Dec. The January record was because of a flood. The only month there isn't any legitimate records for a snake in MI is the month of January. I saw an Eastern milksnake in Jan. two yrs ago, but it was one a student found in their basement, obviously trying to spend the winter in the foundation.

BTW, if we were talking herps that spend the winter underwater, such as turtles, there's a window for seeing into their world. It's called ice...hahaha.

TC

maybe you should have checked the ten day!
www.weather.com/weather/tenday/40272?from=36hr_topnav_undeclared

At the risk of being repetitive, I said I checked historical data for 10 years prior and I saw some things that lead me to believe they could be found in December. (And it wasn't 17 degree weather! lmao)

I didn't say any given day, and I didn't say any day that YOU pick for me LOL... I can pick the days that you won't find any kings either!

Forks

Yeah, I think that once the big deep freeze arrives they tend to stay down, but in the time leading up to this we may find one yet at the beginning of Dec. We have the latest recorded appearance for corn snakes in Ky on Nov 28th. Very close to Dec. This years conditions were not good for this to happen. Hot dry summer that led into an early cold dry winter.

We went out to the field yesterday on a bright sunny day. Before long our feet were numb lol! The tin that we checked was actually frozen to the ground! Not much luck in seeing herps but we secured a 6000 acre park with fantastic habitat that is giving us full access and allowing us to lay out AC and pit traps. They noted that coppers and kings were the most frequently seen snakes here so we are excited to see what we can learn here. Phil

Aaron, I believe wood frogs have that anti-freeze property in their blood. I have also heard that frozen western painted turtles have been brought back up with no ill effects. I am not aware of this in any snakes though. I wonder if species that range way north like the wandering garter or European adder have been studied for this. Phil

>>Aaron, I believe wood frogs have that anti-freeze property in their blood. I have also heard that frozen western painted turtles have been brought back up with no ill effects. I am not aware of this in any snakes though. I wonder if species that range way north like the wandering garter or European adder have been studied for this. Phil

Hi, guys. I once froze an American toad, Bufo americanus, into a block of ice for several hours, then thawed it out, and it came to life. I also know that garter snakes can be below freezing for a short time then warmed up slowly and can survive. I know that many Michigan snakes can survive long periods at near freezing temps and several have been found brumating in water. I've seen painted turtles in every month of the year in MI, as well as frogs and salamanders, and snakes too, if you count brumating ones.

>>Has anybody studied whether there are chemicals released by snakes which allow them to hibernate and whether these chemicals are present in greater quantities in snakes from certain areas? Venom composition has been shown to be different in rattlesnakes from different localities within the same species. Could not the same be true for snakes that overwinter in different localities?

I suppose you could take blood samples of snakes that are in hibernacula. Snakes preparing for winter in areas that get very cold go through what I call a "hardening". Their brains could release a chemical that tells their bodies to shut down. This is something that could be investigated. Once certain snakes shut down, it's almost impossible to get them to eat again until the following spring. When they come out of brumation, it often takes them a week, or more, of warming up before they can start eating again. That's why some say to warm them gradually.

This is just a conjecture on my part. I've never actually read any specific literature on this, but it is an idea similar to what people go through. If I went down to southern TX right now, I would react differently to the weather than a native there because my blood is thicker. I'm already conditioned to a Michigan winter. Right now 50*F. would seem really warm to me, maybe even t-shirt weather, because my blood has thickened up. I have heard that certain species of snakes are more tolerant of the cold than others. I'm not sure if they make any antifreeze-like chemicals, or not, but it's probably worth investigating. If anyone knows, I'd like to hear about it.

I believe FR's principle is that snakes will take advantage of thermal opportunities if they can fulfill some need or life activity. In areas where there are no thermal opportunities for long periods or they don't have any need to do anything they simply remain dormant or resting. Snakes are capable of doing this for long periods if needs be.

Peace and joy

Terry

That's what I was refering to, chemicals from the brain.

I agree, there's a lot to be learned on here from many of the regulars but Frank has given this forum a swift kick in a good way. I also think many of the heated arguments can give us the most insight, as things have a tendency to be decribed in finer details... Tom Stevens

Thanks to all who said a few kind words here about Frank. He is the crankiest, arrogant ol' bastard on the forum, and I wouldn't have it any other way. We have spent the last 27 years in the field together, and I have learned light years from him. We argue, we share, we learn, we change, we herp, and we laugh our butts off.

He pushes buttons, and prods one to dig in and defend their ideas with real observations, or sends you back out there and go get them. I am glad to see many of you realize how lucky you are that he takes the time to type a few lines of bait for all to tug on.

I have been fortunate enough to work on projects with guys like Roger Conant, Peter Brazaitis, Hobart Smith, Jay Cole, Jim Dixon, John Behler, Harry Greene, etc etc etc. I have gleaned an awful lot from the likes of herpers like them. No one has kicked the herping part of my brain into gear with greater reward than Frank.

Hey HKM, Ther'll be no livin' with him now, eh?! I can see Frank's head swellin' from Texas! LOL! Just kiddin', Frank. Learned a lot from all the posters this year, mostly how passionate we all are about the herps! Great forum with a LOT of great posts. Thanks for tryin' to keep it real, Frank. Hope to get a pet snake to eat out of my hand in the wild soon, LOL! Merry Christmas and good herpin' to everyone!
Todd Hughes

Tell Hugh to shut up, hahahahahahahahahaha

Actually I suggested taking mice to our study site and Hugh just gave me the stink eye. I understood, we already know they eat mice. But now I see a use to try this. Over what months will they eat mice? For instance, we find snakes in hunting poses, hmmmmmmm why not observe the result. Just call me Johnny mice seed, with a bag of fuzzies and mice(dressed in a Playboy bunny outfit(backless) Oh man, I can see it now. See what you've done, you drove me nuts. Thanks All. Frank

Thanks Hugh, I feel the same about you or it wouldn't been 27 years. Actually its Hugh that corrects me when I go stupid(common occurance) Hes my other half, tall handsome, kinda shy, and the way he walks up those hills, OOOOHHHHHHHH man, makes a girl. Whoops, somebody slap me.

Ok the I don't do this well, I work much better as the underdog, the vilian, the mean guy, so lets keep it that way. You folks sure know how to shut somebody up don't you. Merry Christmas and bountiful new years. Frank

Mornin', Frank, I knew there was a person with feelings inside that gruff exterior but watch it fellah! NOBODY wants to see the backless bunny outfit 'till Easter, LOL! Too funny!I will see a couple of splendida in the coming month out hunting for garters and legless lizards near the backside of the island down here in Corpus Christi. Last year it snowed for the first time in 10-15 years on Christmas eve, and my son and I saw an atrox on the crawl in the snow so it happens here occasionally.
Todd Hughes

Great words, Hugh. As I've said before, I don't even know Frank or you personally, but the info presented by the both of you has greatly impacted the way I look at snakes both in captivity and in the wild. I certainly appreciate the time taken to post all that has been posted.

Besides, not only are FR's posts thought-provoking, they are entertaining as all heck
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

I must say that FR's post intrigue me to the fullest. I enjoy his discussions with Phil and everyone else.

I was looking through some old issues of the vivarium and found part one of a 2 part interview man with the Goanna Man.

Interesting stuff indeed....to bad i cannot find part 2.