Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well i posted this in the python forum but that forum moves a mile a minute. Im thinking about getting a carpet python and I heard they are semi arboreal. This question should be easy but I dont know it. The question is which is better for it, a 20gl high hexagon enclosure that they sell at pet shops or a long cage thats not really high but provides floor space? Thanx for reading.

How big are you thinking or is the snake in question ?

While they do like to climb alot will depend on budget and you have to think of how fast the snake will grow to what you have now to his/her size when you get it . I would stay away from the hexagon tanks as there not well suited for a carpet python IMHO. If its a baby i would go with maybe like a 30 gal something with height a limb and all can go in, if its larger say yearland size i would go with something 36 long 18-24 wide and 18 tall this could last the snake several years if you wantto buy one cage for a lifetime i would go 4x2x2 or so lots of room for adding branches that can be removed etc as it grows larger .

good luck
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems[url=http://www.junglehabitatsplastics.com[/url]

Well I was thinking about a hatchling carpet python and you said 36 long 18-24 wide and 18 tall would be good so im guessing thats a 30 gallon long or something? Im not cheap but I do know that 4 by 2 by 2 cages cost somewhere between 4 and 5 hundred bucks... Its really a shame if housing costs that much for a snake that I really want. I heard they only grow to 6feet or 8feet at most but thats rear. Would I still need a 4 x 2 x2 cage for an adult 6-7ft snake? People that have bull,pines,gophers dont have cages that big and they still grow to the same length as the jungle carpet python.....

honesly we build enclosures of oak, with stainless steel screens like from cagesbydesign that are less just becuase we sell at cost.

as for your snake question i would go large. We build for boas, pythons and the smaller kings and such. nothing under 60" especially for boa constrictors. if you want an affordable enclosure for a while and then upgrade in a year, that's fine too. you have to consider cleaning, husbandry and esthetics after you consider budget. if you can only spend 300 then i sell it to you for that. it's about making sure the animals are housed properly. for our hog island boa we built a well planted tropical forest type that was 4L x 4H x 2D and love it. it might be a bit too small someday but as the animal is only 2' or so, it's just fine. we've built 20' long habitats too but only becuase it was affordable for the client and they knew something about keeping snakes on dirt.

at the end of the day, if you can go larger now and hardscape it so the animal will still feel comfortable then do it. honestly though, many times, a client will spend 10x's as much for the habitat then the animals housed. i just finished a 3500.00 water dragon habtiat for a 40.00 animal and this makes sense. it's about husbandry.

Deven
Terra5Designs,

my site...google "naturalistic vivariums" to find us fast...

i just got a 4x2x1 cage from www.pvccages.com, a guy named jim from mi, for under $360 wirh cage, heat panel, temp controller and shipping. the cage is great and the price was good. if you go to the section where cages are sold on rhis site in the classifieds you can find his adds. if you go with flexwatt its even cheaper. something to look into.

one foot tall? sounds like a coffin. no pet should be housed
in a coffin. it's about quality, not cost. heck i can build a coffin from A1 grade oak for 100!

One of several major problems that I have with the commercially available cages which are readily available at the moment, aside from their ridiculously limiting spacial features(another big peeve of mine which I will not get into here), is that these cages are 'generic' and supposedly built to house any species of snake/lizard, all at the same time, offering nothing beneficial to the animals themselves.

Each species has its own specific environmental and physiological requirements and needs, which are thereby used to carry out healthy and uncomprimised physiological processes, and allow for a normal day to day life(what the animals are programmed/adapted for). Such environmental factors which are crucial to an animal's physiology and well-being include(but are not limited to) temperature range/gradients, humidity levels(which vary within any environment), hiding spots, spacial distribution, visual barriers to other individuals/cagemates, deep substrate, etc.. All of these factors play an important role in the survival strategies of each species, and are used differently across the board between species.

Yet these commercial caging companies offer no variation between caging, insisting that a ball python has exactly the same environmental needs(all snakes must come from the same type of environment according to their approach), and should live within the same environmental constraints as blood pythons; boa constrictors the same as anthill pythons; tegus the same as bearded dragons, etc... etc.. etc...

Yes, animals, regardless of species and physiological needs, can live and survive within these "one cage fits all" enclosures, however what is the true quality of life? There is a difference between living an ideal, healthy, and burdon-free live, and one in which the animal just 'survives'-whereby certain physiological functions are comprimised or hindered. I for one model my husbandry around what's best for my captives through testing and experimention, and am always seeking out new methods for improving the environmental conditions offered to my captives.

The learning process never stops with us and our captives. Nobody is a true "Expert" with their captives, regardless of how many times you bred a species or whatnot. There is always new information to be learned through our captives. Yet so many people have stopped thinking about or questioning what's truly best for their animals, or what can be doen to make things better; instead settling for these "one cage fits all" setups, and never bothering to study or experiment with what the animals choose to be what's best for them.

Has herpetoculture reached a pinnacle; a point where we can no longer make the lives for our animals better? Why 'give up' and offer these 'generic' caging for our animals? Convenience for us the keeper?? To me, this is a step in the wrong direction, as far as progression goes, and I personally feel that keeping animals according to what's convenient for you the keeper is a rather selfish and bull-headed approach to keeping a live animal in captivity. I think we should always be striving for what's best for our captives; modeling our husbandry and the conditions which we offer our captives around the specific environmental needs and ecological requirements of our animals; rather than using the "it's good enough approach".

When I look at my own approach or conditions which I offer to my captives, I always ask myself the simple and fundamental question, "How does this cage, object, condition, or technique benefit the animal living within?" For those who are using the cheap and generic commercial caging, I suggest you ask yourself this very same question:

What do these commercial cages have to offer to the particular animal within, which will benefit the life of your captive; instead of asking how it is of benefit to yourself, the keeper?

The truth of it all is that all species are different, and have different environmental and physiological needs(even subspecies within the same species). They use different environmental conditions and resources in the wild to carry out natural processes, behaviors, and events. So why keep them in these "one cage fits all" setups, which offer vastly different conditions from what they are adapted for, and instictively use out in the wild?

If it was the health nd well being of your animal that really mattered, I see no reason why anyone would confrom to this approach.

Cheers,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Bob,

You're forgetting - you're not supposed to use substrate in your cage if you are an American herp keeper. After all isn't newspaper the universal substrate of choice? You don't need a tall litter dam if you use newspaper. Besides, what possible benefits could a snake, lizard, etc. derive from being housed on something resembling a natural substrate? Note: this is all supposed to be dripping with sarcasm. I agree with your gripes regarding commercially available caging. Almost all of it that I've seen is substandard in so many criteria that I find important - pretty much all of which were already mentioned by you.

One of my major gripes is the total lack of ventilation in many cages. Most if not all have only top vents for ventilation, so the only air exchange that will occur will come from convection and whatever little bit of fresh air can be drawn in around gaps in the glass doors or whatever. I still shake my head when I think about how the Boaphile cages tout that dinky gap around their front opening door as the necessary means of ventilation while also saying that it's beneficial to helping to hold in humidity. Of course there's a few knock-off companies that have stolen the Boaphile style of cage construction and materials and even tout the same pathetically small gap as equivalent to some massive vent size equivalent to a whopping 2" x 3" or something like that.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

well said. I agree with you 100 percent. i am totaly against the idea that snakes are happy in a rack system with drawers that offer no room or hiding places. what a life that would be... kinda like living under your bed

i purchased this cage because i felt it would fit my young red tail fine for a while. the cage has hides, heat and everything else needed. the cost is not a factor to me i puchased the cage because i liked the looks for my house and felt it was good quality. every one will have a different opinion. not every one may agree your animals are housed properly according to their beliefs ( i dont know how you animals are housed just an example not trying to start problems). the more time i spend on this site the more i see people do things their own way which does not mean that their paticular way is wrong. as long as the animals are healthy and well thats all that matters to me.

You will get lots of opinions on cage size but here is mine based on 10 years working with these guys.

Your hatchling will not do well in a very large cage. Start with a 20 long. The 20 tall aquaria are not easy to establish a thermal gradient in. The 20 long will allow plenty of height for your youngster, and allow a long thermal gradient (warm at one end, cooler at the other)

This should last him a year or more. Once he is 4.5 feet or longer I would move him into a 4x2x2 cage. LOTS of people use 18" high cages for carpets- my opinion - don't keep arboreal snakes if you don't want to allow them to climb. Yes they can climb in an 18inch high cage, but mine look far more comfy in a 24" high cage.
And just because people keep other 6 foot snakes in small cages doesn't mean it is right. Spoil your pets, don't simply maintain them.
Keep in mind that when you add branches, raised platforms, etc. you are increasing the "floor space" of the cage.

And (again just my opinion) don't buy into the notion that carpets are "semi-arboreal". I think that this is a misrepresentation. Obviously they are comfortable on the ground, and True, they will live just fine with no climbing facitlities, and they are not green tree pythons (I have even seen chondros kept succesfully without perches- not an endorsment just food for thought). BUT- in our collection it is rare to see less than 85-90% of the animals (all morelia- mostly carpets)perched. In fact our chondros and carpets are kept more or less indentically (different perch styles and cage sizes).

Again just my opinions- lots of people (very well respected breeders and freinds alike) don't see a need for 24" cages or even perches for that matter.

Good Luck!
Ben
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Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-247-3544

Depending on the age and size of the snake you have many options. Personally I would steer clear of glass aquaria of any shape or size. They have extremely limited ventilation unless they've been specially modified with vents on the side. The only company I know of that makes those type of aquaria doesn't make anything I'd even consider to be arboreal. This cage houses an adult female Coastal Carpet Python.

By choice she chooses to perch above ground, either here where plant leaves create a darkened secure hiding place or near the very top of the cage.

A lot of people have issues with Reptarium cages but I've found that if you can have your room at an appropriate temperature and can provide supplemental humidity via a misting system, they work out pretty well. The increased ventilation is a plus as well.

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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

I would not house a hatchling in such a large cage. The cage pics were to show how an adult can be housed. I would house a hatchling in something much smaller but still give them provision to climb and perch. Gradually move them up to larger cages as they grow.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Thankyou all for your replies! Serriously though $350 for a cage? I dont know maybe these are not the right snakes for me. I bought a 36"L,20"W,7"h rubbermaid for an adult mexican black king (this is when he reaches adult size in a few years, I just had to get it because it was only 10 dollars) and I think I will buy more for some other snakes that prefer burrowing. I guess thats the catch huh? $75 for a beautiful snake, $350 dollars (or more) for the enclosure.... I dont think I want any large species anymore that needs that type of enclosure, yes its better to give your animals the best you can and spoil them without hesitation but serriously everyones not rich.... If I could buy 12ft by 14ft cages for my adult snakes I would but I can't so I ain't.

I've now rethought my decision now and wont get a JCP or a boa but rather a bull or pine snake which are also heavy bodied and exceptionally strong just like how I like it but I wont have to spend $400 bucks on an enclosure. But anyway thankyou guys.

>> I've now rethought my decision now and wont get a JCP or a boa but rather a bull or pine snake which are also heavy bodied

Be aware that many species of Bull snake or Pine snake will get as big or even bigger than your average Jungle Carpet Python. You will still end up needing to spend a fair amount of money for a large cage but instead of being a tall cage it'll need to be a low, long, cage with some depth to it. The cage in my photos of the CCP setup is a Reptarium 260 [for 260 gallons], which sells at various retailers for around $100, plus an extra $20 - $30 for the Soft tray, which is a substrate-holding liner for the bottom. Again, provided your average room temperatures are pretty moderate or can be made warmer, these are pretty workable inexpensive cages. Your main thing will be raising the humidity, especially in the winter time. However, with a misting system and a substrate that will hold moisture can easily help elminate humidity issues.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Yea some pines and bulls will get as large as a JCP but most wont or atleast the ones that do dont need an empire state building type enclosure. Where did you get that reptarium? Humidity is not a problem in florida. I would buy a 100GL one or something larger but where did you get it? Can it be closed fully? In your pic it looks like it stays open.

>>Where did you get that reptarium? Humidity is not a problem in florida.

I buy mine from a place called Herp Supplies : www.herpsupplies.com
Reptariums are made in a variety of sizes and most are capable of being used in an upright manner or laying down long ways.

>>Can it be closed fully? In your pic it looks like it stays open.

The pics were taken with the front opening pulled out of the way for clarity. They close by means of zippers which I keep securely closed by means of locking rings.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)