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When did this happen or have i been hiding out in the Batcave for too long? So Hogg crossed with colombian = hogg co-dom and hogg to hogg = dom?

Joe

Just from the crosses that have been done in order to make sunsets.. Witnessing these litters first hand, the numbers seem to play out that way.. We have been calling them "Blonds"..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

now evertime i see an ad for a blonde pastel, or blond colombian, I have to guess whether its a hog mutt or not?
And here I thought buying possible jungles was gonna be tough...sheesh!
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Davey Giltner

Locality phenotypes expressed in a polygenic fashion just like any other locality breeding.

Although I'm sure the "morphers" would love to weasel it into the single gene mutation catagory. *laugh*

It is my understanding that the hog X colombian just produces a cross....or what most would call a (mutt)....

Within any litter there are a range of colors and the ones that stand out as the lightest most pink and colorful animals get picked for breeding to the hypos....which are also picked for color and quality....

That is why I think it would be polygenic....

I do agree in the finished product of the Sunset boas...they are amazing animals....and I think it is a great example of the hypos refined.

Just my 2 cents.....

Andy

a posting on a different forum the sunset is dual dominant. Ie it is the dominant expression of both hypo/hogg. Being that it is both supersalmon and super blonde.

Joe

Hog's are a single gene mutation and not a polygenic locality phenotype? (of course it hasn't, the empirical data points to the contrary). What proof is there that this locality cross is any different from crossing say.. an argentine to a colombian? (none)

Looks to me like another scheme from the "make something out of nothing" morphers out there.

You should have first hand knowledge..

Not to be arguementative, but as far as I have seen when breeding 2 f1 hypo x hogs together you can get some sunsets, super hypos, some hypo x hogs, some hypos, as well as some super blonds, normals and co-dom blondes..

At this point the numbers in litters pan out that they are their own morph type. I think more breeding needs to be done to further prove this, but thats how it looks so far. I'm sure enough that we pulled the sunsets off of the sale list untill It can be further proven. Even further than that we lowered the price on the co-dom hypo X hogs from what this line here normaly sells for 1000 to half of that.

I don't see why it's so hard to believe that a boa as different looking as a hog is, could be a morph.. Look at a super hypo sonoran boa they are dead ringers for hogs less a hint of a difference in saddle shape due to their locality difference.

If you were to take a handfull of hypo sonoran boas and throw them onto and island over a long enough time span you'd end up with nothing but supers.. I personaly think it's already happen on Cayos De Los Cochinos. Natures funny in that the same type mutations (morphs) pop up within completly different location of the same SSP.. Just like sabogae island boas due to their bottle necked ecosystem the hypo gene has won over that boa population.

I doubt it is going to make any difference in hog prices because they are what they are, I just think it's interesting they have been over looked.

My 2 cents anyway...
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

If the Hog Island boa's phenotype were in fact a single gene mutation, either dominant or codominant, wouldn't ALL hogg Islands that had not been mutted up be "supers", producing all hypo hoggs and animals that just looked liked hogs when crossed with hypos? I think so far, based on the pictures and short clips I have read, and ads I have seen showing "hypo hog siblings" there are some plain jane normal looking snakes coming through from the crosses. Where does the hog mutation go when you breed a hog to a normal colombian??
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Davey Giltner

Exactly Davey..
All hogs would have to be supers.. It's not far fetched.. any dominant mutation that didn't stand out to the point it would be an easy taget will over enough time take over. A colombian X hog is lighter than your average colombian. And from what I have seen in hypo x hog X hypo x hog breeding some of the offspring come out looking like hogs (blonds).

I would be interesting to pair Some staright crosses that didn't have the hypo color to make things confusing..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

you might have to read into that one a bit.. it's saturday...LOL...
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

If you breed almost any two different locals together you will get offspring that are different. Like an Argentine to a Columbian will result in offspring that look simular to Argentines, does that mean Argentines are a type of morph? Not really following you...But interesting chat going on here...
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www.executivereptiles.com

If Hogs were a dom animal then why the crosses? Just like as you said about the motleys....but if you breed them to a normal you get two distinct phenotypes. What I think happened with the sunsets is someone got ahold of a hog boa that had already had a string of polygenic traits that when bred to a hypo ......the rest of the string was completed....and out pops the sunsets. Others have tried to produce sunsets...with no luck. It was said the sunsets were only produced from a certain line ...DM breeders....

I think if someone keeps breeding for that look they could eventually replicate it, but it could take a loooong time.

Buying a sunset boa....may yeild more sunsets if bred to the right animal, but I still think it would be a big gamble...

Another 2 cents...... Andy

Check out that boa below...the Envy post....look at the yellows and the brightness of that boa....it has a look comparable sumwhat to the sunsets....the EBV line is bred polygenic...right? If so then if that line continues to improve, do you not think a similar type look as the sunsets could be produced? Andy

In some of the pairings put together to produce sunsets there are blond babies born these look just like hogs. There has been other lines that produced sunsets paul at PM herps did it they are quite striking too I might add.. The line we are working with are D&M they were born along side of actual sunsets, and are what are called hypo hogs or "het sunsets"..

Here is what we belived happened in this litter. The supers (that are smokin) are a deeper orange color than the original sunsets. It was a bit puzzling to us, but generations can change looks, so we went with it for a while.. The male that produced these guys was bred the same season to a straight up hog female who produced a litter of babies that looked hog first and then there were a few that have the hypo traits too.. Most of them look identical to hogs.

So here is the scenerio we came up with and looking back at the other litters seems to back this. The male hypo hog is a co-dom hypo and a super blond (he's F2 born along side sunsets) the 2 pairings back this. The female hypo hog is also F2 from the same litter, but we believe she is a co-dom hypo and is not a blond gene carrier. So the supers in the "sunset" litter are super hypo but only co-dom blond (we call them lesser sunsets)

The babies from the same F2 hypo x hog male (we belive to be a super blond and co-dom hypo) bred with the hog (super blond) are what apears to be super blond and the few that were hypo are also co-dom hypos. I hope this is making sence...LOL...

There have been other litters of sunsets that had "super blonds" (babies that looked like hogs and nothing else) born along side of sunsets.

In hog X normal litters all of the babies have a lighter appearance, some better than others, but hey in a litter of anything some are better than others.

What does it all mean? I think it's really a bit more difficult to make sunsets than most would think. This info above along with looking at super blond hypo sonorans, and their identical coloring to hogs, is what leads me to believe that the great little hog island boas are a morph that most of us have and have kinda overlooked..

As far as poligenic looks go, I don't think there is enough variation in any given hog litter for their look to be based off of a poligenic appearance. With the numbers I have seen they seem to play into the dominant/ co-dom area text book style.

We belive strongly enough we are losing out on 8-10K what a pair of sunsets would go for. If I don't know for sure what is happening with a boa I can't rightly sell it. I think more breeding is needed and will further prove this out. But in the meanwhile it sure looks to be going in that direction.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

So when you breed a pure hog island boa , or (super blonde morph) to a normal colombian, wouldn't all of the babies be hogs that are het for super hog?
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Davey Giltner

What people do not understand here is that "hog island" is not a morph, but all hog island boas are the super form of blonde hypo. Hog island is a locality, and blonde hypo is a morph. A co-dom trait in an isolated population, if it helped the animals survive, would become common, which is what has happened in the Cayo de los Cochinos.

Ed is saying the hypomelanistic phenotype of Hog Island boas is a single gene mutation, a.k.a morph. Whatever label the nonsense may have. Hog's pass in a polygenic fashion just like every other locality cross breeding, proven time and time again. Anyone claiming to the contrary better have numerous trials and solid proof backing their wild claims. Unfortunately such proof is lacking entirely in this case.

Polymorphism pertains to the existence of two distinctly different groups of a species that still belong to the same species. Alleles for these organisms over time are governed by the theory of natural selection, and over this time the genetic differences between groups in different environments soon become apparent>>>>Morphs!!!! lol

Just to be sure I am understanding you correctly:

Are you saying a polygenic phenotype is a morph?

Well, I would agree in the sense of the technical defenition of the word "morph". But that is defenitely not how the term morph is used in this hobby. "Morph" (in this hobby) is synonymous with a single gene mutation.

Not sure what your point is. I can assure you lilley is speaking in the sense of a single gene mutation.

Would you please send me your hand book "This Hobby As I See It". Your taking a lot of people under your wing there...
You have a lot of opinion for such a trivial topic... IT started as an observation that you turned it into a fight.
I heard you've never bred a snake!? lol How did you develope such a dominate, all knowing opinion. You MORPHED! lol

He has bred lots of snakes, I have personally seen them, and he does produce nice animals, I can vouch for that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and there has been many "morphs" that nobody believed where genetic, and after time they proved it out. I know Mr. Lilly thinks he has something and maybe he does, just give it time to prove out. I personally am not convinced that Hog Islands are a "morph" but I have never personally bred many Hog Crosses before. This whole discussion has been interesting and thats what these forums should consist of...its been pretty "gentleman like" so far, don't give the forum moderators an excuss to delete all of this. Just my 2cents...



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www.executivereptiles.com

...

No, Ed is cool! All I was saying was, Ed stated an observation of several breedings. He has some good points. I agree w/some and I think some need more breedings. Some people like TOPNOTCH (who I was directicting the critisim) wants everything to be cut and dry, right or wrong, based on his opinion. Taxonomy changes all the time. Who is to say that Hoggs are not a sub-species like the Sabogae Isl. What would be the difference? They both developed in isolation. Just sit back and think of the possibility! Why NOT? Dominate morphs...
Sub-species. This changes a lot... Right?
All I wanted was to see constructive opinion and not angery rhetoric...lol Why don't people who don't have the breeding to dis-prove it say we'll see...O well...

my handbook titled "This Hobby As I See It" to:

"Something from Nothing" Sales-Ploy Morphers Inc.
1545 Super-Hog Fantasy Blvd.
YouWishville, AZ 12345

*Inquire for quantity discounts*

NOW! That is funny! I don't care who you are!

NOW THATS FUNNY...I agree I do see people trying to Sell something from nothing, But Who knows, I guess we will see what happens. I once heard that lots of people thought Piebald Balls and Carmel Albino Balls where caused by Temp Fluctuations during incubation, and they proved that wrong. Don't want to bring The Ball World into this discussion but it was just an example. I guess I just don't want to believe that Hog Islands are a morph...LOL Great discussion though...And again that last post was SUPER FUNNY...Good one..
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www.executivereptiles.com

I have a whole snake room full of evidence that leads me to this conclusion. But there is still one more breeding to be done before anything is proven.

np

I dont think the coloration of Hog Island boas helped them survive. Rather, I just don't think it hendered their survival. What I mean is that they don't have the same natural predators as mainland boas. Like their small size, their light color doesn't hurt them. Throw a little bitty light boa in Colombia and see how long it lasts though. Don't see to many wc albinos, but I bet if they were dropped off on an island without predators, and plenty of grub(because there is nothing eating their prey either) they would flourish.
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Davey Giltner

The hog IMO is a locality boa that has had this trait long enough that all of the "pure" hogs are the supers. So if you bred a hog to a norm all of the babies would be the "co-dom" form of the the blond appearance. You could then breed a pair of these "co-dom" blonds, and get the same ratio of different apearing boas in a litter as any other "co-dom" X "co-dom" pairing.

If they were just a cross and nothing more breeding them together should produce all babies that were similar in appearance to the initial crosses not a quarter of a litter coming out looking like super blonds or what a hog looks like.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Ed, if you breed a polygenic pastel to a polygenicpastel, you get a better ratio of pastels than if you breed a pastel to a normal. Now, you will still get varying degrees of pastelism by breeding a pastel to a normal, but fewer will be real deal pastels. I don't think that if you breed a hog to a colombian, and then take the 2 most colombian looking babies from the litter and breed them together, that you will get 25% of the litter that looks pure hog island. I just don't see it.However, I am not making claims about them being dominant either, so it is not my place to prove it, as suggested by an email I got reguarding this. "Breed them and see".
Breed a poodle to a german shepherd. Take the 2 most german shepherd looking babies, breed them together...you wont get many poodle looking babies out of that.
I guarantee that the litter will however still be 100% mutt
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Davey Giltner

Ed, if you breed a polygenic pastel to a polygenicpastel, you get a better ratio of pastels than if you breed a pastel to a normal. Now, you will still get varying degrees of pastelism by breeding a pastel to a normal, but fewer will be real deal pastels. I don't think that if you breed a hog to a colombian, and then take the 2 most colombian looking babies from the litter and breed them together, that you will get 25% of the litter that looks pure hog island. I just don't see it.However, I am not making claims about them being dominant either, so it is not my place to prove it, as suggested by an email I got reguarding this. "Breed them and see".
Breed a poodle to a german shepherd. Take the 2 most german shepherd looking babies, breed them together...you wont get many poodle looking babies out of that.
I guarantee that the litter will however still be 100% mutt
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Davey Giltner

Lets look at it this way. If you were to pair those 2 that looked most colombian in the pairing in your example, and breed them... I'm not saying they are going to look like pure hogs, I am saying there are going to be about 25% that are super blonds. The colombian blood will have it's on effect on the build and way thier markings are but the color will be there.

On the poligenic pastel note, when bred together they look like pastels, (most lines, who knows what else is out there) you may get more than if breeding pastel to an dark boa, but there would need to be 25% that stood out as exceptional above the rest or 25% that could breed anything and throw complete litters of pastels in order for them to be a dominant trait.

If the hogs were like pastels you couldn't take 2 crosses and produce hog like babies from them.

If you get some siblings to pastels (non pastels) and breed them chances are your going to have a litter of normals, you could possibly have a baby or 2 that was nicer looking but it would realy depend on what the parents looked like.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

I saw some mention of argentines and salmontines. On these we are talking apples to oranges.. An argentine is a SSP of boa constrictor. If you breed 2 argentine crosses you will get a litter of babies that look like argentine crosses. If they produced a quarter of a litter that had the same initial look of an argentine I might consider that too but they don't.

A hog is a BCI just like a central american boa (acording to the scientists) but has a unique look, the color is to different not to notice. My whole idea here comes from the results of the breedings done in efforts to produce sunsets, and 75% hog hypos.

How about the Sabogae island boa? Are we in denile that thes boas are hypos? They are the perfect example of my hog "morph" on an island theory.

A pic of one of my pure hogs to think on...


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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

My understanding was that B.c.sabogae was a differnt subspecies, known as the Toboga Island Boa, there's an apple to orange comparison(comparing hogs to them)
Also, I have read notes by some pretty well known folks that contend that colombian boas are BCC.If that is true, then the salmontine to colombian and hog to colombain analogy is more like comaparing an apple to a pear, which I often do when selecting fresh produce for fruit salad.
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Davey Giltner

Either way what do you think the offspring of any normal boa bred to a Sabogae island boa would look like? I'd bet on hypos..

My point is the SSP is not the issue it's the morpholigy..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Sabogae boas have never been outcrossed. Therefore we do not know if they are single gene mutation or not. They very well could be.

That has nothing to do with hogs however. Is it possible? Yes. Probable after numerous outcrossing proving that theyre not? No.

You need to do numerous hog cross pairings with solid and consistant results before you make such a wild claim. One or two litters then jumping to some innate conclusion doesnt cut it.

Newsflash:

Hog x Colombian = Some very hog looking .. some directly inbetween .. some very colombian looking. Exactly the way polygenic inheritence works. (the numbers of each can vary based on multiple factors)

Argentine x Colombian = Some very argentine looking .. some directly inbetween .. some very colombian looking. Exactly the way polygenic inheritence works. (the numbers of each can vary based on multiple factors)

Peruvian x Colombian = Some very peruvian looking .. some directly inbetween .. some very colombian looking. Exactly the way polygenic inheritence works. (the numbers of each can vary based on multiple factors)

etc.

You claim otherwise? Prove it. After you have proven it then you can ethicly name your finding whatever you want. However, the vast majority are going to seriously doubt your hypothesis will be proven because of the extensive hog cross pairings that have already occured that point so clearly to polygenic inheritance.

Thanks for the "news flash"....LOL...

My "claim" is how I see it playing out.. Please don't put words in my mouth.. I'm not saying 100%, for sure, written in blood, or stone, that this is how it is.. Just that this is what I see happening and there is a very good possibilty that they are just that Dominant. I have stated a few times here that more breeding needs to be done to se whats what. Someone asked a question and I answered with my opinion and practical knowledge.

I like the opinions, there are different views, It would be interesting to hear more from others who have participated in these crosses to hear what their results are.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

"After a lot of examination of different breeding with the sunset boas We've got it figured out."

Not a "we think weve got it figured out" or "we may have got it figured out".. you've already nailed it and come to your conclusion. That's how the whole tone of your post there reads as well as your responses. You arent throwing it as a hypothesis to be tested, you are throwing it as the unveiling of a newfound mutation.

Not only that you have already named this supposed newly discovered mutation.

But OK

http://constrictorsnw.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1132108837

So what.. I stated it over and over here.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Yummy

.....wow, I really hope he continues to breed these crosses and "Blondes" so he has a ton of animals he still doenst know what they are ....

where do all the normal appearing babies go?????????? thats my whole disgust with the morphers, i feel sad to think that some people are introduced into the hobby like this with all kinds of mixed snakes and will look down at the beauty of a pure wild caught animal because its not a " triple co dom chitty citty bang bang aneyr double for sumthin salmonite", maybe i am dating myself as an old timer to some but i can hardly believe i went from days of reading "snakes- the keeper and the kept" and hunting for cal kings and gopher snakes in the foot hills, to reading a discussion like this. pure boas are awesome in their own right. sign me, frustrated in chicago, john yocum

I think what happens is....we have very many new people coming into this hobby and what draws them is the color and flash and possible money that the morphs offer...there is no denying that.

In time in this hobby you develope a true love for the snakes and you begin to see the true locals for what they really are...Awesome!

This hobby becomes our passion...but everyone fills their own little niche. Andy

....maybe if it wasnt for morphs the hobby wouldnt be as popular as it is.........just to be clear, i am not totally against some morphs, natural morphs like albinos, or hypos, etc., things that happen naturally are one thing, its the crossing of snakes that never would have mated that gets me, and if i become king i will take care of it, but until then i just worry that snakes as awesome as a hog island boa (one of my personal favorites) would be tainted by cross breeding and selling the babies as pure. john yocum

"hog = dominant thats how I see it.."

Sounds like hogwash to me....

It's my opinion that they are.. I stated several opinions, and I can't see a reason for this to be a blame game...LOL... I have more opinions and as I see them come to light I will state them too. I think they will prove that way, I hope it creates some interest in these great boas. Some of the folks on this thread with "strong" opinions don't have 1 hog island boa..

I think what I think, I sure hope that others that get ideas going about different SSP or morphs would post their thoughts. Analizing different morphs and SSP are part of what makes haveing a diverse collection fun.

I'd love to post pics of a super hypo sonoran, or some of the other "morphs" that have a near identical appearance to hogs, but it's not my place to use other folks pics. If they see the thread It would be great if they posted here.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

I wont post the pics, but I will direct you to there websites so you can see what they look like.

Rio Bravo Reptiles
http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/boas_mexico.htm

Cutting Edge Herps
http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boaconstrictorimperator/item.nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=105
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www.executivereptiles.com

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/nss-folder/pictures/HypoSonoranSuper.jpg

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/nss-folder/pictures/SonoranSuperD.jpg
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www.executivereptiles.com

I don't doubt that's the best of your knowledge.

Theyre limited edition and moving fast, get a copy of your own while they're still available. See above instructions for more details!

No one said that hog island was a single gene mutation, but one of the genes that a hog has is a blonde hypo, and since they are from an isolated population, they are all the super form. That is all that was said.

Exactly.

Thats the same thing I have said in other posts here. The hypomelanistic phenotype of hog island boas is being claimed to be a single gene mutation.

Why is that so hard to belive? The albino phenotype in colombians is a single gene mutation.

in numerous hog island breeding trials it has shown to be polygenic.

Im not saying its impossible, just highly unlikely. If someone wants to claim otherwise they better have some hard facts (numerous breeding trials/clear pictures of the distinct phenotypes/etc) to back up their claims. The dynamic duo lilley and k-thrasher claim they have it. I suspect they have nothing more than the normal polygenic variation we've always seen in hog cross breedings.

I see what you are saying. My personal oppinion is that it doesn't matter because I don't want a super hypo blonde super salmon mutt.

really enjoy the "wild type" of boas. I plan on moving into island locality and BCC boas in the near future.

I could quote you here Mr. "topnotch wild type keeper", but... I don't want to...

I'll give you one thing.. your persistant...LOL... If you wanted pics of these crosses wouldn't you ask for them before you decided it couldn't be true?

Please... show me the pics of the proven crossings you speak of that prove this theory wrong. I am very interested to see them. Point me tword your documentation please...LOL... Did you produce these critters?..... How many breedings proved it to you, to make you so positive? How many hog island boas do you have? How many boas have you bred?

I don't mind a genuine debate but this thread isn't one, cause you wont let it be one.

Realy not interested in exchanging anymore thoughts with you unless you can answer those questions without sarcasm..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

I never said I was a "wild type keeper" as you put it, read closer. Huked on Fonics.

Im not going to go down the list of the numerous hog island breedings that say polygenic. YOU are the one challenging the commonly accepted idea with new wild claim. You are the one fabricating a new label. The burden is upon you.

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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

I think mother nature's pairings show more than any captive breedings, crosses or pure could ever show.
If the labeled "super blondes" were infact a dominant morph, how come none of the pictures I have seen anywhere of imported hogs from back in the day ever looked anything like the hogs we see today? If it were a dominant morph , it wouldn't take selective breeding to make them what they are today. Mother nature doesn't deal in single digit falials. The imports were like f2000, not f1 or f4, and yet these f???? nature gave us which would most certainly ALL be supers are darker, blotchy animals. I think that the hogs we have today are the equivilent of a line bred pastel in the colombian world.Sure, there may be some ultra nice light hogs that came in from the cay, but there are also ultra light clean import colombians. Sometimes nature does the selective breeding. If it were dominant, I would think a lot more of the WCs would have been...well... nice looking.
Anyone got a WC hog they would be willing to pair with a colombian to see the outcome? Ya, didnt't think so, but was worth a shot.
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Davey Giltner

100%....Very Well Said...







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www.executivereptiles.com

See here is where I am looking at this from. If a hog were nothing more than a locality specific look or a poligenic look then if it were paired with a normal and you produced a litter of straight up crosses. Took any given pair of these crosses and bred them together their offspring should all look like crosses, (kind of a half hog color) like their mother and father. Making a baby with the full coloration of a hog would require crossng back to hogs, or refining the look back to what a hog looks like over several generations.

Now I can't say that this has been done because instead of normals, hypos have been paired with hogs and thats where I have been looking at this from. So some of the babies color is masked with hypo coloration. But... how do you come up with babies that look like hogs from a pair of f2 hypo hogs?

It has been known that a sunset is a super hypo from F1 hypo hog x hypo hog. These are the litters that produce the babies born along side sunsets with this hog look on some of the babies in some instances.. As far as I know Kevins litter was the furthest generation out on these type boas. His breeders are F2's and the offspring are the first F3's I am aware of.

In the first generation pairings of hypo hogs you are more likely to produce sunsets from what we can see. Because both breeders are half hypo and half hog. The F2 litter born from these pairings could have some sunsets, some super hypos that are co-dom with the blond trait or just super hypos,super "blonds" and co-dom hypo co-dom "blonds" normals and mixes of both, from our perspective.

Whether I'm right or wrong in my theory, you have to admit it's a pretty interesting find. Collective research is what this hobby needs. Kevin has all levels of hypo hogs, supers, 75% hogs, crosses, "blonds"...ETC... As soon as I get a chance to make it to his house we will get pics of all of these levels for some hard proof.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

"Now I can't say that this has been done because instead of normals, hypos have been paired with hogs and thats where I have been looking at this from. So some of the babies color is masked with hypo coloration. But... how do you come up with babies that look like hogs from a pair of f2 hypo hogs?"

The same way you can get a colombian looking animal from a colombian / BCC cross breeding. Re-read my previously posted newsflash. Polygenic x Polygenic = range looking like both sides and inbetween, not necessarily a solid "down the middle" mix.

"...Kevin has all levels of hypo hogs, supers, 75% hogs, crosses, "blonds"...ETC... As soon as I get a chance to make it to his house we will get pics of all of these levels for some hard proof."

Much better proof would be without the influence of the hypo line. The hypo mutation produces a wide range of phenotypes regardless. That is just another factor to clutter up the results. Regardless, lets see this "hard proof".

I can kind of see where you are coming from.
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Davey Giltner

I am not against them either, I just dont think it is worth it. Hogs are cool the way they are, and unless someone can make some realy cool crosses, I wont buy any. Sunsets are ok, just not worth the price.

They would all be co-dom versions of the Blond hypo, yes.

There is more than meets the eye in a Hog to be able to produce something like this! This is D&M's Hogg/Hypo Super form. AKA Sunset... You be the judge... Input welcome.

There has to be something else there! I'm no TOPNOTCH but, what other cross gives you what a Hypo X Hogg gives you. I know you have to breed a Hypo Hogg with another Hypo Hogg but, you will only get a small purcent of sunset. So, you have a % of hypo,super hypo and something else? What is that something else that makes a sunset? Is it polygenic, where you just get what you get or another co-dom gene (blond) or recessive gene (blond) popping up? There has to be a dose of something that only a Hogg supplies! Has to be!!! What, I have no idea and I just think Ed was giving an opinion on what he has noticed in some breedings.
This is what this forum is about. Opinions and questions. Science isn't absolutes! Science will give you thousands of ways of how not to make or do something before you achieve your goal... Hope everyone opens their minds alittle...

You posted a good post, I think this is the longest running post I have ever seen....Lots of good opinions..
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www.executivereptiles.com

Was just confused. Did not realize i would start a thread this long...

Joe

Thats what these forums should be about, a place where people can discuss different things about boas...I think its great, I would love to see more posts that are that long. You go to other forums where all they do is bash each other over and over again, but this thread stay very civilized. I am actually pretty proud to be a boa keeper and part of the Boa Forums. Great post and thanks.
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www.executivereptiles.com

I think so as well. It should be open to discuss!

I think ghackney's response below is a good example of how genetics can alter things!
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by ghackney

"That is correct. But, you have to look beyond the trees to see the forest! If you look at the human population as a whole they (we) have gotten taller over the last couple hundred years. Why? If there were only one set of rules we all would be average. We evolve to better suit our environment. Now go to some remote village in South America. All the individuals in the hypothetical village will appear the same. Same height,same skin color, hair color, etc... Now, introduce an outside gene from a white/black individual and the offspring would be mixed (average of the 2)Right? This will gradually be removed from the genome if it doesn't help them or No other dominate way to express itself>>>another dose(another outside sourse)...
This is a great topic we need to develope. We need a date base on litters of snakes. Snake genetics are very similar to any other animal and we need to bring all the info. to a central source to be evaluated and dispenced... GL "
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Obviously, this is something will take some time and a lot of effort to unravel, but Rome wasn't built in a day either!
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Scott Collien

"Now, introduce an outside gene from a white/black individual and the offspring would be mixed (average of the 2)Right? This will gradually be removed from the genome if it doesn't help them or No other dominate way to express itself>>>another dose(another outside sourse)..."

Natural selection "filters" out individuals with traits that hinder, not the other way around.

Hypothetical Example: A sporadic mutation "Albinism" pops up in boas in the wild. This hurts their chances of surivival in the wild, therfore the individuals with the trait are weeded out.

Another sporadic mutation "Motley" pops up in boas wild. They retain the dark look and pattern that allows them to blend in. This neither hurts nor helps them versus the wild type, therfore they are not weeded out. Im not saying this example is 100% solid, maybe motley pattern in the wild does hinder them... Its just an example to get a point accross.

Natural selection does not work on the basis of whether or not a trait helps them but rather whether or not it hinders them.

People arent getting taller because short people cant surivive the conditions... there are various factors to consider in that regard. Like I said before, maybe the ladies are generally more attacted to tall guys so they get more "action" therfore producing more offspring? Dunno... lots of things to consider. Sorry but that aspect has nothing to do with survival.

But, I do agree that natural selection and the (micro) evolution of animals is an interesting field that surely can be applied to boas (as with any animal). It has very little to do with whether or not the hog island phenotype is a single gene mutation however. The premise that a single gene mutation will add information to genome increasing its chances survival versus the wild type is not observable science, its an unsubstantiated hypothesis. Scientific observation has proven it generally always a lesser chance of survival but occasionally an equal. This is not to say that its not possible for a mutation to completely overtake an island. The likely scenario for that to be possible would be if the island started off with only that mutation and no wild type to contend with. Its possible that there were both and the mutation flourished/prospered versus the wild type... just highly unlikely. It's possible, no doubt. The problem with the theory that the hypo phenotype present in hog islands is a single gene mutation is that there have been numerous cross breedings that prove otherwise. The hypo sonoran has been brought up because of its similiar appearance to hogs. If the single gene hypo form of a sonoran looks similiar to a hog does that automaticly mean hogs are a single gene mutation? NO. A comparable analogy would be sabogoe (sp?) boas. Since sabogoe boas look similiar to the hypo form of colombians, does that mean they are a single gene mutation? Of course not. Outcross them and prove it to determine so (not reccomended anyway due to the limited number, just making a point). A phenotype similarity doesnt prove a thing. Again, there have been plenty of hog outcrossings to determine with confidence that it is not a single gene mutation. If someone wants to come along and suggest otherwise they better have numerous breeding trials under their belt with solid results. Until that happens this whole issue is merely comical speculation with suspicious (sales-ploy) intentions that are unfortunately common in this hobby.

First of all the reasons humans have gotten taller has to do with a number of things.
1.Better food supply and source.
2.Hybred vigor.
3.Ability to express gene in a more disease resistant environment.
And probably a lot more...Just let me know if you think of any TOPNOTCH!

Another thing! Why do you speak in absoulutes? You lecture and nothing else...

You stated this.
"Natural selection "filters" out individuals with traits that hinder, not the other way around."
No one said otherwise. The point was a dominate trait that allowed the population to increase their ability to survive would eventually become the norm. An albino would have no chance of survival but you still see them poping up! Why wouldn't that gene be totally whipped out then? Guess that is another dicussion or lecture from TOPNOTCH!

"First of all the reasons humans have gotten taller has to do with a number of things.
1.Better food supply and source.
2.Hybred vigor.
3.Ability to express gene in a more disease resistant environment.
And probably a lot more...Just let me know if you think of any TOPNOTCH!"

I might add that taller guys may get more action than shorter guys ... but your points are less vulgar and more professional. Sounds good to me.

"Another thing! Why do you speak in absoulutes? You lecture and nothing else..."

The word science itself means "to know". I make certain "absolute" statements because they are backed by empirical evidence.

"The point was a dominate trait that allowed the population to increase their ability to survive would eventually become the norm."

The evidence tells us that single gene mutations are always a reduction in information which either hinders the individual versus the wild type or is neutral. Never does it increase their ability to survive. Natural selection does, not mutations. This is the exact reason why macro evolution is merely a hypothesis. If it were proven that mutations ever increase the ability to survive macro evolution would thus be proven. No such evidence has ever been observed.

"An albino would have no chance of survival but you still see them poping up! Why wouldn't that gene be totally whipped out then?"

Because it is a sporadic single gene mutation. Occasionally they pop up, the vast majority die before anyone can find them.

I don't view Hoggs as being a morph. I think they represent the result of evolution similar to the destinct pattern of a Peruviam boa. What is very interesting is how the hypomelanistic phenotype is so common in these boas that come from small islands. From the boas I have seen this group shows the most dramatic abilty to color change. I think this phenotype and color change ability likely reflects the fact that these boas probably move through and exist in more diverse environments than a boa that is born and lives within the jungle for it's entire life. I think this is why these boas from small islands show varying degrees of "natural" hypomelanism.
Regarding sunsets and other hypo crosses what I think is interesting is that both salmons and Hoggs have the ability for dramatic color change. I don't know if the genetic basis for this is the same in both animals. In crosses which have a variable amount of either animals' genetics this color change ability can manifest itself in both a dramtic appearing animal and a range of ability to color change. I think this is part of the beauty of the sunset boa. Perhaps someone with other Hogg crosses can tell us how much a surinamxHogg or Peruvian x Hogg can color change.
Bill kirby