Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I love locality milks. Here's a pic of my 5 month old CBB
Eastern Milk "Gilmer". I'm sure he'll turn a lot browner as he ages but I'd sure like for him to stay more red. Parents are
Gilmer Co., Georgia locality (at least that is what I was told)

Scott

That's a beautiful snake. I'd be surprised if that was pure eastern milk though. It looks like an integrade between an eastern and a scarlet king if I had to guess. I believe there are scarlet kings in GA.

Anyway, nice animal. I hope it retains the bright red coloration for you!

Dave
DNS Reptiles

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Dave Niles
DNS Reptiles
Charlotte, NC

Thanks Dave. I trust the person that produced this snake and although I haven't seen pics of the parents yet, he says that they are both fairly typical looking Easterns.
The subject of Scarlet Kings intergrading with other Milk Snake
subspecies in the wild is controversial and fascinating to me.
I know that there are a lot of differing opinions out there.
My understanding is that recent studies involving some DNA work
seem to suggest that Scarlet Kings do not intergrade with
Easterns anywhere. More and more people think the "Coastal Plains Milk" is simply a color morph of Eastern Milk. I don't know. Very interesting.

Scott

Well that is a really nice looking eastern then. It seems to have more banding than the typical blotches that I'm used to seeing. Nice snake.

I also think the integrade issue is interesting. I wish it were my job to study it and figure it out!

Dave
DNS Reptiles

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Dave Niles
DNS Reptiles
Charlotte, NC

I know what you mean about the "banded" appearance. The pic doesn't really show the sides well but the saddles (blotches)
extend down to about scale row 4 (up from ventrals).
What is interesting is that I know that there is some thought that the influence of Red Milk (syspila) might possibly extend into northwest Georgia. The milks in extreme northeast Alabama
(Jackson Co.) are considered to be triangulum X syspila intergrades.

Ditto for me on working on that study. I can't think of any job I'd rather have.

Scott

Scarlet kings definitely do intergrade with eastern milk snakes... I think somewhere around NC for sure...

And that pic looks to be a Red Milk Snake...
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Do you happen to have a picture mike, because i would like to see what the intergrade between them would look like. Ive never seen a picture.
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Cameron

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Just an opinion, but my guess would be that that snake is just an illustration of the variability of easterns.

Scott

n/p
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Cameron

I've seen that pic before and it is interesting. One thing to note however is that this is a single specimen not a pair so its only half the representation of the Oconee population you might initially think. I don't know if this color is typical of that population or not as you can't tell from a single example but even if it were more red is not nessesarily an indicator that its a scarlet X milk integrade.

To the point of the discussion, if scarlets do itegrade with easterns (and its my belief that they do) they only do so infrequently as there is enough reproductive isolation for them to maintain seperate identities even when simpatric.

Well, I'll agree that the snake resembles a red milk but it's a
young snake and young reds and easterns can look very similar.
Also, personally I'd be reluctant to make a bold statement either way that Scarlet Kings intergrade with easterns anywhere.

Scott

I think your speaking of the Nc. "Coastal Plains Milksnakes"
or "Temporalis". I'll have to look for it but there is a mitochondrial DNA study reciently done on several species of Mountain Kings and North American Milksnakes that has shown that
Scarlets and Easterns do not hybridize. If they did you could expect to find both Eastern Milks and Scarlets in those areas as well as the hybrids, as far as I know only Scarlets and the so called hybrids, temporalis, have been found in Hyde and Tyrrell Co., Nc., so where are the Eastern Milks in those Co. and what about other areas where Scarlets and Easterns do coexist with no hybrids? Definitely some interesting info to look into. I'm sure that some new info and classifications will be coming out in the near future. All this confusion make this intersting to me!
Take care,
-Phil

Yeah Phil, I heard about that study. A study was done on Kentucky snakes as well. The results suggest that no intergrading is occurring between the Kentucky Scarlet Kings
and Milk Snakes in the same area.
Here is a pic of one of two Scarlet Kings that I found in
extreme northern Alabama where the form is rare. The snakes were found in the same acre of woodland where milks have also been found. No mixing going on here either. That's not to say that it doesn't happen anywhere the two forms are sympatric, but my prediction is that in a few years it will be convincingly
shown that Scarlet King is a full separate species and doesn't intergrade with any subspecies of Milk Snake.

Scott

Yeah, it should be very interesteing to see what comes of L.t. elapsoides taxonomy. It would also be intersting to see if L.t. temporalis becomes a reality. Call me a GEEK, but I love this stuff!
-Phil

good points....however,i would stop short of stating that scarelt kings won't integrate with any milks....i don't think they will do so with the nominate triangulum,but with temporalis?i think all you need to do is look at pics of your typical coastal from say nj or maryland...now compare that to one from tyrell county,nc...obviously you can see the strong s.k. influnce in appearence and even body form in the coastals from n.c.

Here are a few photos of a Portland Maine locality Eastern milk that I caught last year. I saved her from a couple of ignorant workers outside of my workplace. She had been in the process of copulation and they had already killed her mate. The workers had thought that they were venomous and posed a danger to people. I gave them a quick lesson on milksnakes and relocated her to a more safe location. I am always surprised at the variability seen in eastern milks. Please post more photos of these guys so that we can see the cool locality differences (and similarities).
Josh Martin

Colubrid Concepts

Cool snake. Thanks for sharing. Too bad about her mate.
It is interesting how variable easterns are. I think the ones fron your area tend to be more "blotched" and less "ringed" than the ones from the southern areas. Southern ones tend to be redder too from the pics I've seen.

Scott

Hey,
Nice Eastern! It looks a lot like the ones I used to find growing up in Sanford. Too bad your ignorant cow-orkers killed the male, I thought that it was common knowledge that there are no venomous snakes in Maine. Hopefully the mating was successful and the hatchlings will have better luck. Speaking of hatchlings, my black milks all came out great, but they weren't ready in time for the reptile show in October. I'd still like some help popping them, and I wouldn't mind checking out your collection either... maybe I can catch up with you after the holidays... unless you know anyone who wants a gaigeae or two for Christmas!

Nate

Very nice snake! I myself am not entirely certain, I can say with certainity that I have caught a couple of eastern milks on/near family property in South Western NC and they had a distinctly redder color. Even the adults, although I personally have only captured one "adult" which measured just over 2 feet and was quite upset as I interrupted it's meal of a small terrestrial snake. The juveniles (2) were notably similar to the animal you have pictured. My theories thus far could be an extreme eastern influence of syspila or even a distinct population of temporalis of sorts... The habitat in the Appalachian foothills can be very moist and has many small creeks, etc. Point being -- a similar habitat to the coastal plain, wherein which both triangulum and elapsoides occur naturally... I have a few eastern milks and can say that nothing from other localities has ever quite matched the ones from NC. Furthermore I have seen many dull brownish-grey and larger eastern milks just a hundred or so miles away on the SC piedmont so the divergence is quite impressive. So if the locality you have is "true" it at least could possibly reflect an isolated population.

The mountainous areas of the south have some very interesting looking milks. That one has what I consider BOTH red and LA milk influences. The variability is certainly a valid issue, and most adults from that area tend to be dark maroon without so much brown. But as we all should know,color means NOTHING when it comes to classification. Band count,depth and head shape and pattern are much more telling of the lineage. That one has a real messed up head pattern, almost unrecognizable to locale. If you have a belly shot I would be willing to bet that there is red mixing into the checks...Jeff

Thanks for the comments Jeff. You're probably right about the snake turning maroon in color. I think the parents, especially the male, are quite maroon. I don't have a belly pic right now but there is no red encroaching on the venter, just bold checkerboard.

I have seen quite a few hatchlings from n. ga that have incredible red as youngsters and brown/maroon out as Jeff mentioned. As to the intergrading with Scarlet Kings, I think, also as someone else mentioned, Easterns are a highly variable ssp. I have seen some super red animals that came from areas where there were no elapsoides or syspila to intergrade with. Great looking snake!

Horridus

that's a weird one....i really beleive scarlet kings do not normally intergrade with eastern milks-i concur with the theory of temporalis(coastal plains milks) as an intermediate/'transitional' species if you will,separating the easterns from the sk's....and i see strong evidence that easterns mix with temporalis in to the north(nj),and temporails intergrades with scarlet kings to the south(nc)....but if that milks is truly from gilmer county,ga,than that is a place i think is safe to say is out of the normal range of temporalis-could it be a true scarlet x eastern intergrade?....yeah that is intruiging,but my leanings make it hard for me to accept that as fact,i must admit.

This is not an eastern milk, the head and neck blotch are not connected. That is one of the characteristics of the eastern milk. This is some type of intergrade.

Well, I would say that it's possible that it is an intergrade.
Nobody knows for sure what is going on with the milks of Northern Georgia. It seems possible that there is influence
of Red Milk in NW georgia. On the other hand, there is a lot
of variability in head pattern of eastern milks in locales
where there is definitely no influence from another milk
subspecies. I've seen pics of Red Milks from western Missouri
(where there is no influence of eastern) that had the classic head/neck pattern of easterns.

Scott

I have seen Eastern Milks in the field here in South Central Pennsylvania since I was six years old (I'm now 43). One observation/contribution that I can make is the fact that the collar is not touching the marking on the top of the head is certainly NOT an indicator of whether you have an Eastern Milk or not. I have caught several here in PA. on which the neck was partially or not touching the head blotches at all. The Easterns here in PA. are extremely variable in both pattern and color. Never a dull moment when I see one here in the field.

Get some pics.

I've never seen a pure eastern without that trait.

E-mail me and I will send you some pics: BLB1029@cs.com
Brad

Gorgeous snake, but seems more like syspila or a traingulum X syspila intergrade to me. Do you have any more info (or pix) on the parents?

Here's some variation in young t. triangulum from ne. Michigan, showing some of the variation in the northernmost part of the subspecies' range...


Hope you find out more about the locality

TC

This I would say is 75% Red X 25% Eastern.
This would occur when a syspila x triangulum integrade mates with a pure syspila. I have been collecting easterns, reds, and and eastern X red integrades for over 20 years. I have an eastern and a red in hibernation right now, I'll post the pics and the offsping next season.

Anyway, that is my thought on it

I'll post pics of the parents when I get them and post some of the snake when he's more mature.

Scott