Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been on and off again with the hobby for about a year now and have recently been approached by someone very interested in some of my work. Let me know how you would handle this:

I have been working for about 15 years to establish the ONLY known insular milk specimens from a certain locale. I have been approached several times to publish but until the population is being reproduced on a consistent basis I refuse all inqueries. I have told less than a handful of people of this locale and as far as I know, I have been the only one to find ANY of these in the past 35 years. I donated a specimen to the collection of the local natural history museum and the curator didnt know it even existed on the island.
Several times in the past few years others have claimed to have found specimens,but every time it comes to confirm it they lose the milk. Now a known author has approached me and informed me that they are including text on this locale in their new book. He says that since he is going to write on it anyways that he wanted pics....and went so far as to tell me how to pose the snakes. As far as I or ANYONE in my state Department of Natural Resources knows, noone else has ANY new documentation besides me in the last 35 years. This author is going by data more than 35 years old when publishing,never having visited the island or even looked at the habitat.
It has been my contention that these milks are DIFFERENT and warrant further study. I have submitted DNA to Murray st. and I am still awaiting word on it. The land use practices and value has taken away almost all of the possible habitat for these rare milks. The only hope in saving their existence on the island is some form of protection. This takes time and money. Now this guy is publishing the locale of this rare snake for profit. He has NO new information on it because I havent given it to him.
What would YOU do?? I have degrees in Biology, I am being very conservative with any and all information and have had the cooperation of my DNR from the beginning 15 years ago. This guy publishing risks the years of hard work I have slaved through the right way. He has approached many like this and others have been dumbfounded to have him publish their locales in other publications.....none too happy about it I assure you. But this is an ISLAND locale, completely irreplacable and easily exterpitated. I ask you as a community if there is something we can do about this....suggestions? Jeff

Personally Jeff,

Tell him what you just told all of us, if you haven't already. It's obvious that he needs to know that he is possibly risking the whole species on that island. All for a book... It's just not worth it.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Jeff, that is a tough call.

If this locality managed to be hidden from the evil human race for all these years, I don't think publishing its locality will help in any way.

I've been following your bits and pieces of information since you've started writing about it and always admired your passion for L.t.triangulum.

If it were me, I'd keep the exact locality top secret and keep my research and notes to myself. Who knows, a young budding herper out there might be willing to take over your life time project and keep protecting it as you did.

I once shared the same feeling around a bog growing up only to one day find bulldozers taking over, broke my heart...

Best advise, follow your gut feeling.

Good Luck

Brian A.

Hasnt EVERYONE here lost a "favorite spot" to development? I have written him saying basically the same points I have alluded to here. This is not what anyone would call a "typical" population. I know its because of this that it is sexy to publish. What could possibly be gained by publishing compared to what could possibly be lost?? We will see what he does,Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I would look at this like a good fishing spot. You have a river that you found that you have never seen anybody fishing, it fishes great. You fish it for years w/ a few select friends. Then one day you show up to fish and there is a subdivison going in on your river, or worse a mine.

The more people who know about a river, the more people who will work to protect it. I belive the same would be true for your species on the island.

The author already knows about the locality. Why wouldn't you want to help out w/ more accurate information. You don't have to tell him the rock to flip. Just the county, or island in this case.
Jeff you know how hard it is to find some snakes, I seriously doubt that giving away a county is going to impact a population.

I have to laugh at what you said, "Now this guy is publishing the locale of this rare snake for profit. He has no new infomation on it because I haven't given it to him." This statement smacks of elitism. And I doubt that because of one rare snake that the author is making a profit from the snake. The book may make a profit, and the rare milk will be a small part of it.

Jeff take the weight of the world off your shoulders and put out your infromation.
Dell Despain

You do know he is just trying to make it so this milk population on the island does not go extinct...
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

If it is a weak population then even more reason to get more help. It'll take a number of people to help sustain a deficient population.
It's not a good idea to keep it esoteric.

Are these the monster milks he is trying to sell in the classifieds?
Dell Despain

=)
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Will

Dell, it doesnt matter if a book does tell 100 good guys who genuinely want to save the snake. All it has to do is tell ONE bad guy,with bad ethics(which we KNOW are cruising here and elsewhere)to exterpitate the population. How do I know this? Because I have put in the work, I have spent the time and effort and money to continue to work to establish this line in captivity. Has anyone caught a NICE OKEETEE corn lately? How about that guy who kept getting caught cleaning out rattlesnake dens from Mass to Virginia? This population should be studied and protected and saved for future generations to enjoy.That is my point.
This is an ISLAND,small population to begin with. This author has spent ZERO time there. It would be the equivalent of me writing about rocket science because I saw a space shuttle launch once. That fishing analogy just doesnt hold water. There is NO possibility of repopulation once this site is exterpitated. Elitism?? How about common sense. Unless anyone is still in the Crutchfield camp's theories of exploitation of endangered species for commercial gain.....enough said.
I am being very responsible with my access to this population. I am doing what I can to make sure that they are available to others that seriously want to work with them. Some of the most skilled NA milk breeders have had problems establishing this locale. You likely know this.
Note that this author did not ask me to write anything about them, to add to the knowledge existing. Not that I would have if asked. From his desk 3000 miles away he plagarizes 35 year old population densities and thinks no one will call him on it. THAT is elitism.
To promote such obviously slanted and irresponsible behavior goes against everything I have learned in school and life. I dont have the wieght of the world here, I just cant understand your position of publish first and ask questions later. If you have questions you ask them first and if you cant get good info from someone else then you get it yourself. If you cant get it yourself then you have no business writing about it. That is where we stand here.This is not personal. Jeff

Jeff I think more people already know about the population than you suppose. Development not over collection WILL be the demise of this population. Personally, I think, 1)if their only hope for survival is in captivity and 2)you haven't gotten the project off the ground in so many years then its high time for someone else to try their hand at it!

What have been the problems with establishing the captive population, feeding, breeding, internal parasites?
Thank you,
Phil Patton

Like many other NA milks, they are hard to establish. Like many island snakes, they have evolved to take advantage of very specific niches. The island habitat supports a completely different set of biota compared even to its closest mainland counterparts. Each set of problems requires individual answers. To say that Carl B, Steve F, Brian M,Damon K and others have had problems is an understatement. Add to that my setback several years ago when my collection was stolen. Sorry if this isnt specific enough but as I stated before....when a healthy population is well established in captivity(when there is more than 1 breeder)I will be more disclosing. It is a very interesting project and I would hate to lose it for any reason.Jeff

why are you selling any of these snakes that you have made so clear that you are so concerned about?i too saw your classified ad...sounds intruiging,jeff;but why on earth would you sell specimens from this gravely fragile gene pool-yes,for profit-yet go off about how this popyulation is so at risk to extirpation?not tryin gto give you further grief,just wonering if i missed a chapter.

It has taken me many years to establish these. I have finally had success in consecutive years breeding,a first. I realize that I cant keep everything,nor do I want to. Letting ANY cb snake go back into the wild is a risk which I wont take.I know the best way to establish these is to have others establish their stock through my cb's. It is my attempt to keep these PURE and only let these go to people interested enough in keeping them alive and thriving. I have GIVEN some of them away to well established NA milk breeders,with marginal results at best. SO I have gone the other way and placed a value commisurate of their rarity. If they dont sell,fine,I will keep them. But,if they do, they will be going to someone SERIOUS enough to be trusted with them. I am kind of re-hashing my argument with Ric now so I will stop. I think you get the drift.The fact that there are likely morphs involved(due to such a small population)should be intriguing to some of the other serious milksnake keepers at some point. I have offered established adult males because of other milksnake guys not believing in the sites uniqueness(size) as well as the problems associated in feeding problems with males in particular. Again, I am at a point where I dont want to divulge these problems,sorry.Jeff

yeah,i was wondering if captive propagation was the plan here...to which i wondered,'why not just do it yourself,rather than sell them to others?'....and you answered that.i have considered that myself (propagation)with another species entirely,and still may pursue it in the future...but i just had to ask about the sales aspect of it,i'm sure you can see why it could appear to just be a $$$ thing to others...i agree i think 'your heart is in the right place',but also so much of this is beyond your control...if it helps you sleep at night even a little,i am a hardcore milk fan,esp. for the n. americans....and i honestly don't think those 'green monster easterns' will have the commercial pull of,say, a red pigmy,a 'true okeetee' corn,or even a temporalis;besides,the true issue you're up against is likely that bulldozer/some republican pushing for more and more commercial development;and publishing the data about this relict or isolated populace will probably only help to delay their demise if anything,rather than expedite it.

You are worried about the snake being built out of existence. Well you will not stop that from happening if nothing is published to acknowledge the snake and its small habitat. It will just stay status quo until the habitat is gone. The flipside is that you are worried that someone will go and catch them for profit. I guess you had better put a price on the babies at $25.00 each. That way noone will got out of their way to catch them for profit. If you create a high price on the snakes, you are contributing to there exterpation in a way. Just my 2 cents...Ric Blair

Ric, a low price reflects little interest. Little interest leads to neglect. To put a premium price at the outset is basically telling everyone who is interested that this is a serious investment and to treat them as such. That usually means to be bred pure and well kept by serious keepers. These cb babies are RARE, to let them go to someone who doesnt appreciate the uniqueness is something I would rather not do. I would rather keep them myself than to let them go to someone who does not take the time and effort needed to keep them. I have given several of these away,so its not about price. They are just very difficult and I would prefer them to go into experienced hands in an effort to help me establish a larger breeding group. Just because someone has something for sale doesnt mean that they want to sell it....only that they are available. Semantics I am sure,sorry,lol.Jeff

Ric is dead on here. If you inflate the monetary value of these snakes you are increasing the collecting pressure on them and the rate of extirpation. If you are selling these babies for $200 each, you are rewarding anyone who might be interested making the effort to collect more. There is no way around this.

If you give these snakes away to "interested breeders" you will ensure that there is no monetary value and it isn't worth bothering to go over to the island and try and collect them. People who want them could get them for free from you and others. That would protect the wild population.

The only reason to charge large amounts for the cb babies is to pad your wallet. It does nothing to ensure the future of the wild population.
You say that people don't appreciate things that have no value. But not having value is good for the wild population. If people don't want them, they won't collect. And so far, AFAIK, hobbyists haven't protected any species in this country. You put a big price tag on it and the collecting begins.

In most states, it isn't hard to petition DNR to have a species listed. You will have to provide evidence that the population is significant and that it warrants protection. Then you will have to give up your captive group of them, since they will be protected in your state. You won't mind, of course, because you are interested in the protection of the population.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

If you inflate the monetary value of these snakes you are increasing the collecting pressure on them and the rate of extirpation. If you are selling these babies for $200 each, you are rewarding anyone who might be interested making the effort to collect more. There is no way around this.

Why do you think he is trying to keep the locality a secret??
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

I certainly do enjoy your post Chris. You are dead on again.

And for Ric you are also dead on and I have a love hate thing going with your site. I love to look at it but I hate the money I am going to eventually spend because of it. Killer site and perfect view of this situation.

later Jason

I am not just a hobbyist, I am a biologist. Right now there is not $1Million to protect and acre of land,the going cost. Right now there is no evidence that these are different snakes,which makes protecting them harder.Given the "average" price put on milks on this site I dont think it a high price to pay. Pale milks and coastal plains milks routinely go for $250ea dont they? Believe it or not some people will put value on something based on something BESIDES them being colorful.These other milks are alot more common than these. Lets face it, albino milks are ALOT more common. I feel the market will adjust if people think it too high,it usually does right?
To put NO value on these again,would set a bad example and it would not influence the successful milksnake breeders to make room in their collection for another species.It may influence less successful breeders to inquire,beg and plead for the right to work with them. I dont think this a good idea based on the successes of these other NA milksnake experts who already have experience with problem feeders.
I dont think anyone would be worried about collecting if it werent for this pending book. To contribute to such a thing would again send the wrong message to any budding biologists out there. I think most can concieve of such nobility, they just are not used to seeing it here where rhetoric is the norm.If there was no value some would think it noble to try and repopulate this snake, another serious biological NO NO.
No, this isnt my data he is publishing. But do you really think it responsible or upstanding to publish based on 35 year old data? I mean what would people say if someone came out with a book about the world being flat? How does that Apollo mission compare to the space shuttle? What if enough people interested in buying this pending book(re: readers of this post at this site) realized that the author's intentions prior to publishing? How could he possibly defend himself to the scientific community or any other for that matter? It has been my contention that the author is at best irresponsible for this inclusion and at worst totally fictitious.
As far as my specimens, I am not concerned. I was the one to find them again and the local DNR has known of my intentions for 15 years. Would there be any Indigo snakes in the hobby if someone wasnt conscientious enough to attempt breedings prior to them being listed? Bog or Plymouth Red Belly turtles? The list could go on and on so that argument is moot.
Remember price will never truely indicate value. Value is not what I want to sell it for but what someone else wants to buy it for. These are a very interesting and unique locale that will have interest now and for the forseeable future whether you think they are pretty or not. If you dont think they are worth what I ask, just pass. I dont think it your or anyone's right to determine or complain about what I think the value should be. I know what the cost of a plane ticket is,what the cost of a hotel room is and what the cost of a beer is there,lol. Come on, they are a hell of a lot more interesting than any snow ball python right?? If you dont think they are you are in the wrong place. If you want to make an arguement please base it on FACTS not conjecture,ridicule or some other bias. I havent.Jeff

If you want to make an arguement please base it on FACTS not conjecture,ridicule or some other bias. I havent.

FACT: Wild caught, normal phase eastern milk is not worth $2000. Ken.

n/p

I still haven't heard a good reason why not to put them in a book.

I can undrstand why you wouldn't want the island locality disclosed. I believe I have talked w/ the author about some milks I have and he asked if he could use the county on these milks and not the locality. I didn't have a problem w/ this because I don't think people will find the locality I hunt and if they do I doubt they could over collect it. An island may be different.
The author seems like a reasonable guy. Why not ask him to not print the island locality and just give him any pertinent info. on the L.t. triangulum monsters?

Jeff, you asked "what would you do". And is seems that most the people on this thread think you should put out some info.

So what are you going do?

By the way, interesting thread and problem.
Good luck.

Dell Despain

Dell, I dont have to look for a majority opinion here. If I didnt know about them before I would be all ears and enthusiastically looking forward to more info in ANY milksnake book. BUT at what cost? The little info (range extension)is hardly worth noting. They arent classified differently yet. The author has rubbed more than one person the wrong way in his first publication, why should this one be any different? My point was that he no NEW info besides rumors.
Again, this isnt someone's "secret spot" getting bulldozed and I am not particularly worried about collectors but I have urged the use of common sense with this knowledge. Publishing without regard to the current state of affairs is simply not responsible. If this werent an ISLAND we would not be having this discussion, this is the END of any gene flow. J

Jeff,
I still haven't heard a good reason from you why you wouldn't put the L.t. triagulum in a book w/ out the locality info.

I understand that you don't need majority opinon. So why your original question? "What is the right thing to do." And then you ended w/ "Suggestions".
Why did you ask the question if not to get responed to.
The majority in this thread seem to think that you should help w/ some information. Is any of this getting through to you, are you takeing any "suggestions" to heart.
Or has the majority opinon just made you more determined to keep all information you could provide, to your self and a few esoterics.

Dell

p.s. I don't know what ROFLMAO means either.

Dell, I do plan on publishing myself at some point. I will only do it once there are reproducable populations in capivity and the science has been done. I wont put the cart before the horse for anyone. You have been more than cordial in your attempts but those ideas divert too much from the original topic of the post. Have a nice holiday,Jeff

this 'little info is hardly worth noting'......yet you've tossed and turned over this decision for who knows how long???huh??....'what should i do'....ok,yeah you sought some feedback,you got it;only to argue everyone down that says anything you don't like because it goes against your will....why ask then?seems you already had your mind made up,and maybe felt tinges of guilt(?),thus were apparently fishing for people to back you but it did'nt happen...this is starting to stink.

100% agreed with ken,if you honestly beleive they are different from l.t.t. then prove it. also contributing to range maps SHOULD be something everybody should WANT to do imho,,,,,,,thomas davis

I agree 100%.

I admire your dedication to this population, but he isn't publishing YOUR information. He is publishing information that has been available to interested parties for decades. If you want to contribute some updated information to his book, why not offer him that information and photographs?

As to how to pose the snake, it's his book, that's his right. You, of course, can decline.

And remember, this isn't the next Pueblan Milksnake or other glamor snake that everyone is going to want. Most people don't get excited about Eastern Milks because they aren't colorful and they have a reputation for being difficult. I don't think there are many people out there waiting for these. I admire your passion for them, but I don't think the market is there. That is good for the population, as I stated before.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Hi Jeff,

Tough situation you find your self in. Unfortunately, this guycan publish what ever he wants, as long as there is some documentation to back him up. This is both a good and bad thing as others have already said. Afterall secret knowledge does no one any good.

I am not sure how this island population is different than other mainland populations, by I take it from the name Monster Island Milks that atleast the size is different and depending how long they have been isolated on that island they may be genetically distinct too. I would try and get some other biologists involved in studying this population, particularly those interested in speciation and life history evolution. If this population is as interesting as you think it is it may have something to tell science and if it does maybe you will be able to get some kind of protective status for this population. Lots of maybes and in there but it may be worth a try.

Others have studied the effects of isolation on islands in relation to body size, age at maturity, life time reproductive output, lifespan and the like so there could be interest out there in the scientific community.

Cheers,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

...in stating that you need to sell them at a low cost to prevent the need for further collection. I understand that it is a population from an island, but I doubt that collecting pressure would substantially damage the population any time soon. If the population really is that fragile, then IMHO it is safe to assume that you have damaged it already by collecting the animals you have (although I doubt this is the case). To be honest, I think you should have published it immediately. Has DNR expressed any interest in protecting the population that occurs on the island?

If I were you...I would give the book guy (I have a feeling I know who it is) his information rather then exclude myself from the whole process for no good reason. I hope it all works out...