Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My little rant on the subject of keeping turtles and having access to vets. For the vast majority of owners, access to a qualified vet is an absolute necessity. There is no substitute for taking your turtle into a vet’s office when it gets sick. No one, and I mean absolutely no one can give you a qualified opinion as to what’s wrong with your animal over the internet. Even if we can tell you that your turtle has shell rot for example, from a picture, there can be a whole host of underlying causes as to why that’s occurred. Once again, only a qualified vet can perform the needed tests.

If you can’t afford a vet, then you shouldn’t have the animal in the first place. Heck, if you can’t afford a vet, you probably couldn’t afford to set up the animals properly in the first place. While buying the turtle itself may be very inexpensive, everything that’s needed to keep it healthy and happy is not. So if you don’t have the necessary cash, a turtles not for you. No vet, no pet.

Good post!
The same can be said for any pet though, not just turtles.
A little O/T but still reptilian. I get a lot of email (not through to www.kingsnake.com but through my other cyberlife)from people wanting me to cure their pets & usually those emails get me down in the dumps. I hate getting those emails because they don't need me they need a vet.
I got email from someone who'd found an injured green anole. End of story is the family took it to a vet, had surgery done, dewormed, the whole nine yards. Got email back yesterday telling me they now have a healthy happy green anole pet. They paid for all that treatment for one little injured lizard they'd found because they cared. It made my day to read that one.
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PHRatz

Well said. If only more folks took the real cost of care into account before aquiring a pet, many, many animals would be better off as a result.
On a more positive note, it is not terribly difficult to start an emergency fund, folks.
If you don't have a savings account, I would urge you to go to your bank, find out balance requirements for savings accounts, and OPEN ONE!
No extra cash on hand? Think about some of the things you pay $$ for regularly that aren't REALLY essential to your survival...drink water instead of soda, pack your lunch, brew coffee at home, you know, that sort of thing.
Contribute on a regular basis, and you can build a balance more quickly than you might imagine. If your paycheck is deposited electronically to a checking account, you can arrange for a set amount to be transferred to savings.
Even setting aside part of your allowance regularly can add up...

Your pets will thank you for it.

Just to add a little realistic balance to this post...

I'm sure... no... I know most herpers do not take their pet to the vet at the first sign of something wrong.

The smart thing to do is ask for more information so you can make an intellegent decision and not waste a ton of money running to the vet every time you have a question. The majority of the time if it is not obvious there is something wrong it is usually nothing to be concerned about once you know what you are looking at.

I'm thinking of all the new keepers who post to lists like this who do not have the experience to know what to look for. Should they forget the questions and run straight to the vet.

I think you can get a qualified opinion on the net and many people do with the presentation of a useful description.

I'm not saying that a vet is despensible. I'm saying that there is nothing wrong with those asking help from experienced keepers when they think their animal is sick.

I honestly don't know how to respond to the last statement except that it must be nice to be independently wealthy.

Most responsable vets that I know will not perform all the necessary tests or procedures after considering the cost of the animal and the cost of the procedure.

Finally... what is the necessary cash? I've had tortoises/turtles that I've had for well over 20 years without a problem and have spent zero. On the otherhand I've had chelonians for a few weeks in which I litterally spent thousands. How do you prepare or budget for that?

>>My little rant on the subject of keeping turtles and having access to vets. For the vast majority of owners, access to a qualified vet is an absolute necessity. There is no substitute for taking your turtle into a vet’s office when it gets sick. No one, and I mean absolutely no one can give you a qualified opinion as to what’s wrong with your animal over the internet. Even if we can tell you that your turtle has shell rot for example, from a picture, there can be a whole host of underlying causes as to why that’s occurred. Once again, only a qualified vet can perform the needed tests.
>>
>>If you can’t afford a vet, then you shouldn’t have the animal in the first place. Heck, if you can’t afford a vet, you probably couldn’t afford to set up the animals properly in the first place. While buying the turtle itself may be very inexpensive, everything that’s needed to keep it healthy and happy is not. So if you don’t have the necessary cash, a turtles not for you. No vet, no pet.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Respectfully, i couldn't agree less. At a very minimum you should take each new animal into the vet for an initial checkup that would include a fecal sample. After that, I agree getting some advice from someone experienced who can actually SEE the animal would be a good idea. But taking advice from someone over the net is next to useless in most instances. I've read the advice given on most of the forums and in the vaste majority of cases it's the blind leading the blind.

Most of the vets I've visited will advise me of the cost of procedures and be willing to work out a payment plan if i don't have the necessary cash. I can honestly say I haven't met one yet who's ever taken into consideration the COST of the animal.

Reptiles are not disposable pets. You don't just decide not to treat them because it would be cheaper just to let them die which is sadly what an awfully large number of people are willing to do. My Box Turtle only cost 30 dollars, treatment will run 200, I'll just get another.

I've been keeping turtles and tortoises for close to 25 years and I've never not spent money to treat sick animals. If you can't provide adequate vet care when necessary then don't own one.

All i can say is that if you were caught doing some of the things to dogs that people do to turtles and tortoises there'd be a huge outcry.

I had many animals most of my life. I see them as living creatures not too different from our egotistical selves. To me my Siberian Husky is my friend. My reptiles are special in their own right; mostly I’m in awe of their reactions and differences. But in my humble opinion all life is sacred. All too often we take them for granted.

I’ve had large dogs all my life but very rarely have they gone to a vet. We gave them the necessary shots at home obtained at our local feed and farm or co-op. We read many books on their care. Now my boxies I have had just over twenty years. In twenty years you can do a lot of research on reptiles and boxies specifically.

Ten years ago after doing extensive research; I rebuilt one of my boxies shell with plaster casting material. Many more followed; all were a success. Since then I have removed many caseous cysts along the side of a boxies head; again all were a success. Working with fellow herps I also learned to manipulate a female boxies ovaries when an egg was stuck; and how to snake a catheter down through the esophagus into the stomach during the administration of carefully measured drugs for worming and also for the administration of Flaygl for protozoan infestation. By now I have a complete veterinary reptile library and use my binock to check for parasites. I have several methods to identify positives including a dry float /wet float / direct smear with or without dyes. Next to my binock is a chart identifying the various parasites.

Lambriar Vet Supply and Others will sell any of the necessary medicines and fecal test kits that are the exact method that vets use. In the twenty years I’ve been breeding and raising boxies I never had one to a vet and never have lost one. I still read all I can on boxie care and learn new techniques monthly.

Now understand that if I had a boxie or any of my dogs that were beyond my help; I would never hesitate to have it be seen by a vet.... in a heat beat.

I think that when we have any pet we must assume the responsibilities and devotion to keep that animal healthy. It takes time and money and persistence. Before obtaining any animal we should learn of their needs and ask ourselves if we can do this.

The frequency of using a vet has to be considered with moderation. Otherwise we’d all go broke; and not have the money or time to care for our families, other pets or pursue life.

For example there are plenty of books out there explaining in great detail how to deworm your boxie...Or you can speak with one of the Various Herp Societies on special care via the phone.

Prevention is the BEST medicine. Educate yourselves in advanced box turtle husbandry and Health Care and use that great Rep Vet when you can’t help your boxie. That point will be different for each of us depending on how much you assimilate. But to have a series of X rays, blood tests, ultrasound, fecal tests, antibiotic injections, vitamin injections, examine fee, hospital fees, etc......is not medical care in moderation...but a huge amount of money for the vet; when many of those tests can be done by a learned box turtle owner with research. Members in these Herp Societies have been doing so for decades with excellent track records.

My roommate in college was going to vet school and graduated with honors.
However he admitted to me that he felt his job was tougher than a regular M.D.

He also admitted that there was no way anyone could learn all of the diseases of each and every animal we keep as pets. It was all too consuming.. Learning about the treatment of just human beings was tough enough for a doctor. So his knowledge of many animals was brief, diluted compared to a M.D.

I know some vets take extra classes on reptilian care; but the intensity is nothing compared to a M.D. ......partly due to the fact that vets make most of their money on the more popular animals whether farm or for pets. Is there a standard necessary for a degree which states that an individual is awarded a fellowship for a Reptile Vet.? I don’t believe so. Also while there are few great reptile vets; most vets that treat reptiles rack up huge medical bills and because of their lack of knowledge with reptiles...their percentage rate of the animal dying is high...as compared with M. D.’s

Having a Box turtle is a huge COMMITMENT. It’s up to each of us who have one to learn all we can on their HEALTH CARE. And when we can’t help..or it’s serious enough, then see that Special Rep Vet.....MODERATION.... for survival .. .
Ric

That's great. There should be more owners like you out there. Unfortunately the majority have nowhere near that kind of knowledge or education. For them, a qualified vet is still a necessity. As far as going broke treating animals and not having time for our families, I think thats a bit of a stretch. I've been keeping for about 25 years now and never come close to that. The worst thats happened was taking care of a large female snapper that had been struck by a car. Treatment was close to a 1000 dollars but the vet was willing to work out a payment schedule for me.

There are exceptions to everything in life but as I said in my original post, the MAJORITY of keepers need access to a qualified vet. And I still say if you can't afford vet care for your animals you shouldn't have them in the first place.

Most of the herpers I know are very much like Ric. As little as 15 years ago there were very few vets who had anything to do with herps. Most of us were on our own and not by choice. Every resource including the help of others with similar interests were utilized... again, not by choice.

Now, the turtle keeper does have a choice and it is a choice.

I believe Ric hit on a very important point in this topic in that many of us are into this for more than the reason of just keeping a pet.

>>I had many animals most of my life. I see them as living creatures not too different from our egotistical selves. To me my Siberian Husky is my friend. My reptiles are special in their own right; mostly I’m in awe of their reactions and differences. But in my humble opinion all life is sacred. All too often we take them for granted.
>>
>>I’ve had large dogs all my life but very rarely have they gone to a vet. We gave them the necessary shots at home obtained at our local feed and farm or co-op. We read many books on their care. Now my boxies I have had just over twenty years. In twenty years you can do a lot of research on reptiles and boxies specifically.
>>
>>Ten years ago after doing extensive research; I rebuilt one of my boxies shell with plaster casting material. Many more followed; all were a success. Since then I have removed many caseous cysts along the side of a boxies head; again all were a success. Working with fellow herps I also learned to manipulate a female boxies ovaries when an egg was stuck; and how to snake a catheter down through the esophagus into the stomach during the administration of carefully measured drugs for worming and also for the administration of Flaygl for protozoan infestation. By now I have a complete veterinary reptile library and use my binock to check for parasites. I have several methods to identify positives including a dry float /wet float / direct smear with or without dyes. Next to my binock is a chart identifying the various parasites.
>>
>> Lambriar Vet Supply and Others will sell any of the necessary medicines and fecal test kits that are the exact method that vets use. In the twenty years I’ve been breeding and raising boxies I never had one to a vet and never have lost one. I still read all I can on boxie care and learn new techniques monthly.
>>
>> Now understand that if I had a boxie or any of my dogs that were beyond my help; I would never hesitate to have it be seen by a vet.... in a heat beat.
>>
>>I think that when we have any pet we must assume the responsibilities and devotion to keep that animal healthy. It takes time and money and persistence. Before obtaining any animal we should learn of their needs and ask ourselves if we can do this.
>>
>>The frequency of using a vet has to be considered with moderation. Otherwise we’d all go broke; and not have the money or time to care for our families, other pets or pursue life.
>>
>> For example there are plenty of books out there explaining in great detail how to deworm your boxie...Or you can speak with one of the Various Herp Societies on special care via the phone.
>>
>>Prevention is the BEST medicine. Educate yourselves in advanced box turtle husbandry and Health Care and use that great Rep Vet when you can’t help your boxie. That point will be different for each of us depending on how much you assimilate. But to have a series of X rays, blood tests, ultrasound, fecal tests, antibiotic injections, vitamin injections, examine fee, hospital fees, etc......is not medical care in moderation...but a huge amount of money for the vet; when many of those tests can be done by a learned box turtle owner with research. Members in these Herp Societies have been doing so for decades with excellent track records.
>>
>>My roommate in college was going to vet school and graduated with honors.
>> However he admitted to me that he felt his job was tougher than a regular M.D.
>>
>>He also admitted that there was no way anyone could learn all of the diseases of each and every animal we keep as pets. It was all too consuming.. Learning about the treatment of just human beings was tough enough for a doctor. So his knowledge of many animals was brief, diluted compared to a M.D.
>>
>>I know some vets take extra classes on reptilian care; but the intensity is nothing compared to a M.D. ......partly due to the fact that vets make most of their money on the more popular animals whether farm or for pets. Is there a standard necessary for a degree which states that an individual is awarded a fellowship for a Reptile Vet.? I don’t believe so. Also while there are few great reptile vets; most vets that treat reptiles rack up huge medical bills and because of their lack of knowledge with reptiles...their percentage rate of the animal dying is high...as compared with M. D.’s
>>
>>Having a Box turtle is a huge COMMITMENT. It’s up to each of us who have one to learn all we can on their HEALTH CARE. And when we can’t help..or it’s serious enough, then see that Special Rep Vet.....MODERATION.... for survival .. .
>>Ric
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ahh the good old days. Phoning local zoos to talk to keepers and trying to find a vet that knew the difference between a turtle and a tortoise. Even back in the dark ages it was still necessary for me at least to talk to vets and work in conjunction with them to try and find out what was wrong with an animal and how to treat it. While my local vet didn't always have all the answers he had access to a wider network of data than I did and between the two of us we could usually come up with something.

Today you can usually find a qualified rep vet within travelling distance. Not everything that's wrong with an animal can be diagnosed by an experienced amateur. And as keepers, thats what we are no matter how long we've been at it.

If you're lucky you'll never need a vet, but if not it's criminal not to seek one out when things get beyond our capabilities. Even for the most experienced a vet may well be necessary. And if that time comes, and you don't have the funds or the willpower to seek out the necessary help, you really shouldn't be keeping animals in the first place.

You might call it the dark ages but I look at it as an age of enlightenment. It was during that time that vets and fanatical keepers did talk, which led to many of the protocols that vets currently use for herps today.

I've never met a keeper who did not seek out a vet when it was necessary but the main point is that it is not always necessary to seek out a vet when something is suspected to be wrong.

>>Ahh the good old days. Phoning local zoos to talk to keepers and trying to find a vet that knew the difference between a turtle and a tortoise. Even back in the dark ages it was still necessary for me at least to talk to vets and work in conjunction with them to try and find out what was wrong with an animal and how to treat it. While my local vet didn't always have all the answers he had access to a wider network of data than I did and between the two of us we could usually come up with something.
>>
>>Today you can usually find a qualified rep vet within travelling distance. Not everything that's wrong with an animal can be diagnosed by an experienced amateur. And as keepers, thats what we are no matter how long we've been at it.
>>
>>If you're lucky you'll never need a vet, but if not it's criminal not to seek one out when things get beyond our capabilities. Even for the most experienced a vet may well be necessary. And if that time comes, and you don't have the funds or the willpower to seek out the necessary help, you really shouldn't be keeping animals in the first place.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think you're missing the thrust of my posts. I said originally "For the vast majority of owners, access to a qualified vet is an absolute necessity. There is no substitute for taking your turtle into a vet’s office when it gets sick."

I for one have seen a lot of neglect when it comes to the keeping of turtles and tortoises. I've definitely met people who had no interest in taking their animals to a vet when it was needed. Too much money or too much effort. They don't have the cash or a three hour car trip is too long. All you have to do is read a lot of the posts on these forums to realise that.
I still maintain what I've said from the start. No vet access, you shouldn't have a pet.

As for the so called dark ages, I agree, it was an exciting time. New species kept appearing on the market and trying to establish and breed them in captivity was a great, if sometimes frustrating experience. But I'm glad we're at the point today where, with a limited amount of effort, competent medical help can be found for our charges. I think people like yourself and streamwalker are excellent keepers who would have little trouble deciding when it was time to seek additional help. For an awful lot of people thats not the case and a vet is a necessity.

Anyway, thats all I have to say about that. Really enjoyed the conversation and i wish you all the best in your Herp adventures. Happy Holidays and dare I say it, Merry Christmas

Can't really end on that note.

The vast majority depends on the crowd you're hanging out with. The vast majority of the people I know are similar to myself in that the health of the animal is paramount at all cost within reason.

The original comment made is a very simple one for a very complex issue.

I don't know about anyone else but I was (and on occasion, still am) one of those people who will ask questions that seem like I'm trying to avaoid the cost of a vet. That's not the intent in my case. I'd like to learn more and I can remember the frustrating period in the beginning of trying to attain what little knowledge I have now.

The majority of the posts I see that ask this kind of question usually seem to be trying to find out if a vet visit is necessary or not. That's a smart move.

>>I think you're missing the thrust of my posts. I said originally "For the vast majority of owners, access to a qualified vet is an absolute necessity. There is no substitute for taking your turtle into a vet’s office when it gets sick."
>>
>>I for one have seen a lot of neglect when it comes to the keeping of turtles and tortoises. I've definitely met people who had no interest in taking their animals to a vet when it was needed. Too much money or too much effort. They don't have the cash or a three hour car trip is too long. All you have to do is read a lot of the posts on these forums to realise that.
>>I still maintain what I've said from the start. No vet access, you shouldn't have a pet.
>>
>>As for the so called dark ages, I agree, it was an exciting time. New species kept appearing on the market and trying to establish and breed them in captivity was a great, if sometimes frustrating experience. But I'm glad we're at the point today where, with a limited amount of effort, competent medical help can be found for our charges. I think people like yourself and streamwalker are excellent keepers who would have little trouble deciding when it was time to seek additional help. For an awful lot of people thats not the case and a vet is a necessity.
>>
>>Anyway, thats all I have to say about that. Really enjoyed the conversation and i wish you all the best in your Herp adventures. Happy Holidays and dare I say it, Merry Christmas
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>The majority of the posts I see that ask this kind of question usually seem to be trying to find out if a vet visit is necessary or not. That's a smart move.

That is true, asking questions to find out if a vet is needed is a smart move. If it's needed they should go but.. there really are times when it's not needed & asking about it on a message board can save people from travelling, spending money, & embarrassment.
One question I've seen many times for years comes to mind & that's one I'm sure we've all seen.
The person sees something come out of the turtle, then it went back in but it scared the person to death because they didn't know the turtle is a male.
Of course if what they saw didn't go away & is not going back in a vet is needed, but otherwise they'd feel pretty silly if they went to the vet only to find out nothing is wrong.. it's just a boy turtle.
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PHRatz

That is a good example I hadn't thought of. Some others are the peeling skin and the 'white stuff' my turtle is passing... This could become a thread in itself but I think this point has been made.

>>>>The majority of the posts I see that ask this kind of question usually seem to be trying to find out if a vet visit is necessary or not. That's a smart move.
>>
>>That is true, asking questions to find out if a vet is needed is a smart move. If it's needed they should go but.. there really are times when it's not needed & asking about it on a message board can save people from travelling, spending money, & embarrassment.
>>One question I've seen many times for years comes to mind & that's one I'm sure we've all seen.
>> The person sees something come out of the turtle, then it went back in but it scared the person to death because they didn't know the turtle is a male.
>> Of course if what they saw didn't go away & is not going back in a vet is needed, but otherwise they'd feel pretty silly if they went to the vet only to find out nothing is wrong.. it's just a boy turtle.
>>-----
>>PHRatz
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>That is a good example I hadn't thought of. Some others are the peeling skin and the 'white stuff' my turtle is passing... This could become a thread in itself..

You're right there, those things could easily be a whole other thread of discussion.
This whole thing reminds me that I really need to get a nice gift sent over to my vet by tomorrow.
She is so wonderful, she's done several treatments for me at either low or no cost.. like Chip.
I think she views some of these things she does as practice especially with a wild one like him, so she just doesn't charge an arm & a leg to treat them.
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PHRatz

I've got a vet like that and he's not even a herp vet.
Keep in mind that I have access to some of the most well known herp vets in the herp community.

>>>>That is a good example I hadn't thought of. Some others are the peeling skin and the 'white stuff' my turtle is passing... This could become a thread in itself..
>>
>>You're right there, those things could easily be a whole other thread of discussion.
>> This whole thing reminds me that I really need to get a nice gift sent over to my vet by tomorrow.
>>She is so wonderful, she's done several treatments for me at either low or no cost.. like Chip.
>>I think she views some of these things she does as practice especially with a wild one like him, so she just doesn't charge an arm & a leg to treat them.
>>-----
>>PHRatz
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think you’re misconstruing what I’m trying to say. I never said that asking about things like fanning or husbandry issues was a bad thing. But no one can diagnose an illness over the net. I’m talking about most of the symptoms presented on these forums which are so general they could be a whole host of things.
My turtle is basking all the time, he’s lethargic, he won’t eat. Can you tell me what’s wrong from these symptoms? I can’t. No one could. So you have to take it to a vet at that stage. Waiting to see if it gets better on it’s own is not a good idea. Reptiles are masters at masking symptoms until it’s almost too late. So for the majority of people a vet is an absolute necessity. Actually scratch that, a vet is a necessity for everyone because no matter how experienced you are there are things that no amateur can diagnose or treat properly without a vets help.

In the situation you give I would ask for more information if I'm willing to help the person who is asking the question. There are many simple reasons that could be the cause of that kind of behavior and they can be ruled out from advice on the net before running to the vet.

The previous examples given are no different than an illness. Once you know what they are they are no longer a problem. Some experienced keepers seem to have forgotten the first time their turtle flashed them or noticed their turtle shedding...

>>I think you’re misconstruing what I’m trying to say. I never said that asking about things like fanning or husbandry issues was a bad thing. But no one can diagnose an illness over the net. I’m talking about most of the symptoms presented on these forums which are so general they could be a whole host of things.
>>My turtle is basking all the time, he’s lethargic, he won’t eat. Can you tell me what’s wrong from these symptoms? I can’t. No one could. So you have to take it to a vet at that stage. Waiting to see if it gets better on it’s own is not a good idea. Reptiles are masters at masking symptoms until it’s almost too late. So for the majority of people a vet is an absolute necessity. Actually scratch that, a vet is a necessity for everyone because no matter how experienced you are there are things that no amateur can diagnose or treat properly without a vets help.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

So you're saying that even if you don't have access to a vet, you should keep reptiles. That access to the internet is enough. People on the net will be able to tell you waht is wrong with your animal and how to cure it.

What I'm saying is that the keeping of a pet should not be limited to your accessibility to a vet.

Also, the internet is a useful resource in making a good decision when considering the health of your pet... That's what I'm saying.

>>So you're saying that even if you don't have access to a vet, you should keep reptiles. That access to the internet is enough. People on the net will be able to tell you waht is wrong with your animal and how to cure it.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

It seems to me that everyone is making very valid points here.

It is not a bad idea at all to solicit the opinions of more experienced keepers before making a trip to the vet, as long as the people inquiring are aware of the limitations of such opinions. I agree with RFB that its unreasonable to expect experienced keepers to be a SUBSTITUTE for a qualified vet who can dispense the appropriate medications, etc. Where novices may run into problems is if they turn to a forum such as this one INSTEAD of being willing to take a trip to the vet, or because they can't afford one.
As an example, a runny nose can be something a turtle can bounce back from on its own with extra TLC, or require antibiotics to treat: the difference in symptoms can be quite discreet, and a turtle can go downhill very quickly if not treated properly. I for one would not want to recommend that someone forego a vet visit in such a situation.

Ultimately, a keeper needs to be willing to observe and learn, do alot of reading, ask plenty of questions, expect a learning curve, expect to spend money on their pet. Plan ahead: find out where the nearest herp vet is, and what they charge for a visit and other services.
Building a reserve of funds in case trips to the vet become necessary is a good idea.
Stephanie

This sounds reasonable.

>>It seems to me that everyone is making very valid points here.
>>
>>It is not a bad idea at all to solicit the opinions of more experienced keepers before making a trip to the vet, as long as the people inquiring are aware of the limitations of such opinions. I agree with RFB that its unreasonable to expect experienced keepers to be a SUBSTITUTE for a qualified vet who can dispense the appropriate medications, etc. Where novices may run into problems is if they turn to a forum such as this one INSTEAD of being willing to take a trip to the vet, or because they can't afford one.
>>As an example, a runny nose can be something a turtle can bounce back from on its own with extra TLC, or require antibiotics to treat: the difference in symptoms can be quite discreet, and a turtle can go downhill very quickly if not treated properly. I for one would not want to recommend that someone forego a vet visit in such a situation.
>>
>>Ultimately, a keeper needs to be willing to observe and learn, do alot of reading, ask plenty of questions, expect a learning curve, expect to spend money on their pet. Plan ahead: find out where the nearest herp vet is, and what they charge for a visit and other services.
>>Building a reserve of funds in case trips to the vet become necessary is a good idea.
>>Stephanie
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Ultimately, a keeper needs to be willing to observe and learn, do alot of reading, ask plenty of questions, expect a learning curve, expect to spend money on their pet. Plan ahead: find out where the nearest herp vet is, and what they charge for a visit and other services.
>>Building a reserve of funds in case trips to the vet become necessary is a good idea.

Good advice. I'd like to mention one other thing I've found with some people, not all people but some... it's that they seem to be intimidated by the vet. I think sometimes people shy away from vets because of that.
What we as pet owners need to do is build a good working relationship with the vet we choose.
They are human too & there can be a lot of miscommunication between vet & client because they've said something we don't understand.
Often that boils down to the fact that all we need to do is simply ask a few questions. Don't nod your head while the vet talks if you don't understand something, ask. They want you to ask questions, they want you to walk out of that hospital feeling like you fully understand every thing he/she said & that you're all on the same page.
There have been times for me, such as recently with Chip, I understood what the vet said but she said so much that I knew I'd never remember all of it so she got me a piece of paper so that I could write down what I knew I'd forget.
If you find a vet who's not open with you, and not willing to answer anything then find another vet. There are good ones out there, but we have to find them.
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PHRatz

>>I think you’re misconstruing what I’m trying to say.

I understand the point you're trying to make.
I don't disagree with you either. If you aren't responsible enough to take care of a pet then you shouldn't have one at all.
That's one of the signs I hang on the wall in my summer class for little kids. I made the message short & sweet: if you aren't willing to pay a vet, don't have a pet.
Goes nicely with my sign that says: if it has a mouth it can bite.

I've found though over the years that a lot of the time what people post doesn't always come out the way they meant for it to come out.
Happens to me all the time....still!! lol

They may seem to want medical answers without seeing a vet but often that's not the case.
I think those who aren't willing to seek medical treatment at all & never will do it, aren't as likely to post on a message board as those who just want to hear other people's experiences with whatever pet they're asking about before they see the vet. Even though yes it happens sometimes, people ask questions with no intention of ever seeing a vet, I think most people will see a vet when they need to.
For those who do post questions on message boards often when you explain to them that nobody can help them through a computer they usually understand that.

Otherwise having a place to "talk" with other keepers is a lot of fun IMHO.
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PHRatz

Neat point here...

These are 2 very different statements here.
One is a judgement and the other is good sound advice.

One is most likely to be met with distain and dismissed and the other is most likely to be thought about and acted on.

>>That's one of the signs I hang on the wall in my summer class for little kids. I made the message short & sweet: if you aren't willing to pay a vet, don't have a pet.
>>Goes nicely with my sign that says: if it has a mouth it can bite.
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

It’s good to share opinions and methods of thinking. Diversity can bring change. However, no matter how strongly we may feel on a subject; we’re not going to sway one’s individual thinking by stating this way is the appropriate way or another way is more right. We may bring attention to change by logic and thought. Or if we can prove the use of a different way is less tedious, less harmful, or in some way more advantageous. This advantage needs to made clear and personal to change the status quo.

Both ways of thinking thus stated show MERIT. Both have good points and some questionable ones. Now it’s just up to the reader to decide. I think all following this thread understand clearly what each of the authors are stating. (Myself included) However it may be unrealistic to desire everyone to agree 100% with either way of thinking; as we assimilate ideas differently depending on prior experiences we’ve had in life.

Consequently, we can all agree that we believe in doing the best for box turtles.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah,
Ric

Ric that is one beautiful turtle in the photo!
Thanks for posting that & your thoughts.
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PHRatz

>>One is most likely to be met with distain and dismissed and the other is most likely to be thought about and acted on.

This is true one may be met with distain and dismissed but I like to put it out there so they can think about it.

The way I feel about the animals is once I take them into my home then I am 100% responsible for their every need & that includes medical care when it's needed.
I realize that not every person feels the way I do, but there's not a much I can do about it.
My hope is to plant that seed in the minds of these little kids for the future.
I didn't realize until last summer what suckers these little kids are for a sad story.
I didn't take my sulcata in last year because our vet now has a 65lb male so her assistant brought that male instead. Saved my hubby from using his lunch hour to take ours up there for me, I can't carry her by myself because she's too heavy.
The kids who'd seen my sulcata in the past & knew her story about being shot with a gun were so disappointed to see a big male that didn't have a sad story.. they didn't really care about seeing him. They want to see the ones with a story who've been saved from death.
Many of these kids take the Reptiles & Rodents class every summer & I've taught it since 1999. Last summer when I brought out the box turtles I asked "How many of you feed yours cat food?"
Nobody raised a hand! They've heard me, none of them are feeding a staple diet of cat food anymore. I was thrilled to find out that they do listen.
Maybe the message about seeing a vet when needed will get through to them too.
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PHRatz

Let's try these 2 approaches with a youngster...

Scenario #1

If you can't afford to properly take care of a pet you shouldn't have one...

Most likely response... Well... I'll show you.

Scenario #2

Before you buy a pet it's a good idea to try and do as much research as you possibly can and this usually includes lining up a good vet in case you need one.

Most likely response... (or so I'd like to think) Can you help me...?

>>>>One is most likely to be met with distain and dismissed and the other is most likely to be thought about and acted on.
>>
>>This is true one may be met with distain and dismissed but I like to put it out there so they can think about it.
>>
>>The way I feel about the animals is once I take them into my home then I am 100% responsible for their every need & that includes medical care when it's needed.
>>I realize that not every person feels the way I do, but there's not a much I can do about it.
>>My hope is to plant that seed in the minds of these little kids for the future.
>>I didn't realize until last summer what suckers these little kids are for a sad story.
>>I didn't take my sulcata in last year because our vet now has a 65lb male so her assistant brought that male instead. Saved my hubby from using his lunch hour to take ours up there for me, I can't carry her by myself because she's too heavy.
>>The kids who'd seen my sulcata in the past & knew her story about being shot with a gun were so disappointed to see a big male that didn't have a sad story.. they didn't really care about seeing him. They want to see the ones with a story who've been saved from death.
>>Many of these kids take the Reptiles & Rodents class every summer & I've taught it since 1999. Last summer when I brought out the box turtles I asked "How many of you feed yours cat food?"
>>Nobody raised a hand! They've heard me, none of them are feeding a staple diet of cat food anymore. I was thrilled to find out that they do listen.
>>Maybe the message about seeing a vet when needed will get through to them too.
>>-----
>>PHRatz
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Let's try these 2 approaches with a youngster...
>>
>>Scenario #1
>>
>>If you can't afford to properly take care of a pet you shouldn't have one...
>>
>>Most likely response... Well... I'll show you.
>>
>>Scenario #2
>>
>>Before you buy a pet it's a good idea to try and do as much research as you possibly can and this usually includes lining up a good vet in case you need one.
>>
>>Most likely response... (or so I'd like to think) Can you help me...?

That's exactly the point I want to get through to them without hitting them over the head with it. When I make up these signs with a short message it causes them to ask "What does it mean?" Then we can get into a discussion about it, which goes over well especially with the older 5th & 6th graders.
We (I have a partner in this) use a lot of printed caresheets. The kids each get a folder notebook at the beginning, they get to decorate it the way they want to. As the days pass they get care sheets for several species which are written for adults by various authors who've given their permission for me to use them.
By the time this whole thing is over they have a sort of animal care booklet to take home & the parents do read them. I know that from the feedback we've gotten.
Generally if the kids have no idea that a vet can treat a turtle or other reptile (or rodent) then neither do the parents.
Then again we meet quite a few who are aware of this & do have exotic pets that have been vet treated already.
It's fun. It's all about learning while having fun, not beating them over the head with my personal views.
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PHRatz

Those are great teaching strategies. I like how you have the kids involved. It’s good to let kids learn about reptiles that are so often avoided by most elementary school teachers.

I like your use of instruction that forms a small book with completion of the unit. However you might also consider that for the average fifth grader box turtles don’t make good pets.

Care sheets used for instruction send a passive message that with this knowledge; I can raise a box turtle. The brevity of a care sheet unintentionally can send mixed messages regarding removing boxies from the wild. Since the INTENT of a care sheet is designed for pet keeping.

Shouldn’t we also consider teaching the other side of the option....?
These exotics are difficult, and expensive to keep as pets and taking them from the wild can lead to their extinction? I‘d hate to see kids learn of the specific needs each subspecies has at the expense of a boxie’s life.

It’s a difficult concept for 9 and 10 year olds to understand that this creature ( box turtle) needs their commitment for the next 60 -70 years or more. Care sheets may not be the best medium for teaching information about species that are best- not kept as pets.

Fifth graders like to pick up the small light weight creatures as curious and inquisitive as they are and pass it around. Most boxies in such a setting would be extremely stressed out. And would each and every one of them always remember to thoroughly wash their hands?

Included in a fifth/ sixth graders’ instruction; it might be an option to let them know that their allowance won’t pay for a vet bill....AND it might be well to stress that these creatures do best when left alone in the wild. In addition, we should just observe them; and that it’s very difficult to keep them in captivity. Most care sheets seem to omit that. Care sheets teach to keeping animals captive.

How many nine year olds are going to read about the balance of calcium, light and phosphorous with regards to shell growth?
Inadvertently CARE SHEETS send a false message.

You can get books and periodicals for your grade level donated free for most species just for the asking, from major corporations....and some local environmental groups. It’s good P.R. for them and a huge tax break.

Now I’ve stated my stance here against care sheets. But I’m hoping that you already have taken this into account and have also taught to these other options; knowing well- how influential a position you have as a teacher....and from reading previous posts how dedicated you are to boxies.
Ric

>>Shouldn’t we also consider teaching the other side of the option....?

>Now I’ve stated my stance here against care sheets. But I’m hoping that you already have taken this into account and have also taught to these other options; knowing well- how influential a position you have as a teacher....and from reading previous posts how dedicated you are to boxies.
>> Ric
>>

Oh yes, I have taken this into account and have tried to teach these other options.
I can't even begin to tell you the other side of this story.
The problem is that I live in a state where it's not illegal to take box turtles from the wild and I live in a town where hundreds if not thousands of residents have multiple "backyard turtles."

We try very hard to encourage the kids to leave wild animals in the wild but reality is that they already have box turtles trapped in their backyards. My purpose for the caresheets is to try to ensure that the parents read this info so that they can get a clue about what they're keeping in the backyard.
I want to try to get the point across to the parents that these are not toys for the kids and if they're going to continue to keep them there's a lot more to it than just tossing out some cat food a couple of times a week.
Horned lizards are a protected species, I've actually come across children keeping those as pets. Showing them the state's Parks & Wildlife printed info on doing that got through, they let the horned lizards go.
As long as the state doesn't find any problem with taking box turtles from the wild, they won't stop taking them and keeping them.
I approach what I see as a turtle problem in this way:
this is not a good thing to do but since it's already happened then let's deal with it the right way.

There's just too much to say about this in a small post.
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PHRatz

“Oh yes, I have taken this into account and have tried to teach these other options.
I can't even begin to tell you the other side of this story.
The problem is that I live in a state where it's not illegal to take box turtles from the wild and I live in a town where hundreds if not thousands of residents have multiple "backyard turtles."

We try very hard to encourage the kids to leave wild animals in the wild but reality is that they already have box turtles trapped in their backyards. My purpose for the caresheets is to try to ensure that the parents read this info so that they can get a clue about what they're keeping in the backyard.”

Hard to believe our state lawmakers have left these guys ( box turtles ) unprotected.

With all the useless laws they pass each year; like relaxing the water and air pollution laws that were meant to remove carcinogens....and extending the Time to release to the public the truth they found regarding the assassination of President J.F. Kennedy... It was scheduled by law to be released last year. Holding the truth from the public only incriminates themselves and their already questionable credibility. More recently trying to pass a law regarding the politically allowed “Merry Christmas”; and wire taping in private citizens homes. I’m surprised boxies are left unprotected; but I suppose I shouldn’t be.

But with the present rate of decline in box turtle population, and phenomenal destruction of their habitat; our grandchildren may never see them in the wild. I’m guessing there are environmental groups trying to get legislation passed.

Reflecting back on “options”........ I do see your difficult undertaking.
BEST OF LUCK with you commitment.

Ric

>>
>>Hard to believe our state lawmakers have left these guys ( box turtles ) unprotected.

Oh I could gripe about this for weeks. There is a herp society in the DFW area that is trying very hard to convince the state to change the law. They are not connected to any type of animal rights groups they are simply a group of concerned citizens who are doing all they can for box turtles.
The group members range from the highly educated Ph.D. to the average reptile hobbyist citizen who is simply concerned and wanting to help.
I joined their yahoo group quite some time ago to keep up with what they're doing. Those of us far away can write letters to the state, but so far it's done no good at all.

In our area we have a free advertising newspaper that comes out once a week, you can pick one up at any store.
For years someone has advertised that he buys lizards, snakes, & turtles. He won't say why, I called him once & asked him.
Of course I know why... he's collecting them to sell into the pet trade. This year he ran an ad that said he was running a contest, the person who brought him the most WC reptiles got a prize.
Can't do anything about this, he isn't breaking the law.
It's very difficult to convince kids that they should leave the turtles & other herps be when the state government doesn't care.
That's why I do hand out turtle and other species caresheets... at least I can attempt to make them understand that live animals are not toys and need to be treated with kindness.
If you're going to keep them then you must feed them correctly and you must provide vet care when needed or else you are being cruel to them.
Put that simply they do understand and it helps too that most of these kids watch Animal Cops on Animal Planet so they have already been influenced by those TV programs. Yeah!
-----
PHRatz

I only scanned through the first half of the long thread...

Yes, it begins with be prepared for a commitment. We all agree here. Set aside what you can for expenses. What we all should do is all call up a few pet insurance company's and ask that they consider turtles. A few bucks a month is easier to handle than a grand at a time.

As someone that many people come to for help, I definately endorse asking questions to learn, and perhaps avoid a vet visit. What I DON"T want to see, and I"ve seen lots of it, is people with obviously distressed pets, looking for a way out of seeing the vet. A broken leg is a broken leg. A dying turtle is a dying turtle. Skip the net and go to the doctor in these cases.

A few responses revealed a great degree of self seeking education which is awesome. However, a lack of a line drawn between what an owner should do, and what a vet should do was obviously apparent. Shell repairs and lump removals should always be done by a veterinarian. Anesthetics and analgesics, if ignored, is animal abuse. If you have the privelage of obtaining these, then you have the education for their usage, and are thus not joe public.

My suggestion for those who are eager to bridge the gap between educated owner, and veterinarian, then do so WITH your vet, and work with them. If they are comfortable with your skill level, then it's at an appropriate level.

Ian

Thanks for making them.

" Shell repairs and lump removals should always be done by a veterinarian. Anesthetics and analgesics, if ignored, is animal abuse. "

I care about everyone's opinion. You are welcome to yours.

I was the only one who discussed the above procedures.

The animals in question would have died without the surgery.

The vets in my area were consulting me on reptiles. They are great with cats and dogs.

A fellow reptile owner spent thousands on her animals with a 99% death rate. I didn't want the same to happen to my animals.

Mine all survived.

Incidentally, all were intubated and anesthetsized following world renowned Lowell Ackerman's (D.V.M.) method's as pictured, outlined, and described in detail on Chelonian Care in his three volumes on Reptilian Health Care. There were several other sources that I cross referenced. If you had asked; I would have gladly informed you.

None were abused in any way; however for anyone to make such a blanket statement when one doesn't know all the facts can be considered abusive. Just my opinion....for those who care?

Ric