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I'd like to know what some of you are doing to prevent pyramiding in your torts. I have some juv leopards within minor pyramiding (which I'd like to minimize) and some hatchlings that I'd like to prevent the pyramiding from occurring at all. Can anyone give me some pointers (i.e., reduced feeding schedule, high fiber food recommendations, regular soaking schedule, etc.)?

Thanks in advance.

SSSammy

I was reading through my copy of the Tortoise Trust guide to keeping torts and turtles, from 1996 I think, and in the discussion about metabolic bone disorder (and pyramiding) it recommended:

1) Appropriate protein intake from plant sources (for herbivores like the leopard). According to them excess protein interferes with calcium metabolism and requires extra water intake. Recommended protein levels were approximately .2 grams of useable protein per kilogram of tortoise.

2) Adequate calcium and d3(duh!)

3) Adequate hydration

4) fiber

They didn't discuss heat in this context, but they recommend that tortoises in general be kept at the appropriate temperature.

My leopards had some pyramiding when I first got them, but I've been able to keep that under control. I keep them indoors except for brief periods of basking and grazing in the summer. I keep a shallow water dish in their enclosure, which they use frequently. Since they are such are prodigious pooopers I keep them on newspaper, which results in a too dry environment, but I counter that with twice-weekly soakings. If possible you could try to create a humid-hide area as recommended by EJ and others.

During the summer they graze on the lawn a few times a week, ingesting grass, clover, and various weeds like dandelion. I also give them grocery greens with calcium/d3 powder. In the winter I use a few greens but boost the fiber intake with a mix of Pretty Pets tortoise pellets and chopped timothy hay. I soak the pellets and hay until it is mushy. They love that. I also add a little calcium/d3 to that mix. Every once in awhile I give them a little cuttlebone. If I give them nothing but greens their stools become very runny. The pellets and hay are very high fiber and produce nice firm stools. Same goes for the grass and weeds in the summer.

I don't know how much protein this gives them. I base my feeding schedule upon visual inspection: If they don't LOOK fat (bloated legs and neck) and are active, I continue to feed them as usual. When they start eating the newspaper substrate (no harm done but not recommended) I'll add a little more. The pellets are 8% protein (dry), and I'm trying to make the pellet/hay mash mostly hay, which I think is about 6-7% protein when dry. The other weeds and greens run around 1-3%. I don't know how much of the protein ends up being complete and useable. Again, I just give them plant-based foods and feed enough to keep them satisfed but not fat.

The temps in the enclosure vary with the seasons. At peak summer, the ambient temp is close to 80, moving up to about 100 under the basking lamp. During the depths of winter the ambient goes down to 70 and basking to about 90. They also have a low-UV fluorescent fixture.

So I think this fits the recommendations for protein/hydration/calcium-d3/fiber/heat. At least it works so far. They have grown very slowly over the last 3 years.

I think EJ and others were discussing this below. I also recall someone citing some research indicating that this multi-factorial approach to maintenance is shown to reduce pyramiding. Here's a link to a discussion of this topic for sulcatas:

www.sulcata-station.org/pyramiding.html

I appreciate the helpful insight and the information. Although I have been soaking my hatchlings very regularly (almost daily), I will also begin using the sponge/hide technique immediately and incorporating a damp hide for my juvs as well.

Thanks again. Your post is very much appreciated.

I also keep russian tortoises.

My husbandry technique is a little different for these guys. They live outdoors for almost 7 months a year, don't like to drink from a bowl, and hibernate for about 3-4 months a years.

I give them next to no pellets. I've noticed in the past that they get sluggish when fed Mazuri or RepCal pellets as a major component of their diet. Now I will give them a tiny handful of pellets (pretty pets these days) coated in calcium maybe once a month as a vitamin treat. I regularly put cuttlebone in the pen. The females (who lay 8-10 eggs each in the summer) consume the cuttlebone.

The rest of their diet is weeds, grasses and greens. I coat the weeds and greens with plain calcium carbonate maybe once a week or so. They also get one item from carrots/squash/apple/melon rind once a week or so in hot weather.

It's humid here in Missouri so I don't have to worry about hydration. I've never seen them drink when outdoors, but I do provide a water bowl and I also spray down their pen in hot and dry weather. They have a hide box to get out of the sun, and they also crawl under clumps of grass, rocks and logs.

They spend a few weeks indoors before and after hibernation. I soak them regularly and give them greens and weeds when available. I dust the food with calcium/d3 powder. I keep the newspaper subtrate of their hibernation box slightly moist so they don't dehydrate. I give them a brief soak about once a month during hibernation. This doesn't seem to interfere with their sleep.

Their temps are mostly weather-determined. From 45 to 105 when outdoors. I bring them in if it is cold AND raining. Whe indoors it's generally in the 60s with an 80-degree basking spot. I don't keep them too warm indoors since they are either going into or waking up from hibernation.

This has mostly worked for me. I have a female russian that I purchased when she was 4" and 225 grams. About 5 years later she is 7" and 1200 grams with a smooth, even carapace. She also has produced several hatchlings over the last two years. Two torts I adopted about 4 years ago have grown slightly. They were 5.25" (male) and 6.25" (female) at the time. The male is an aggressive breeder and the female has produced fertile eggs 3 of the last 4 years.

I did keep my first hatchling but didn't always follow the appropriate guidelines when raising him. In retrospect it appears I fed him too much food, including pellets, kept him too dry, and probably didn't give him enough calcium. At 3.5 years old he is a little over 5" and about 425 grams. His shell is much flatter than his parent's shells and shows a hint of pyramiding. He is healthy and already sexually mature, although he may have matured too soon. Another hatchling I raised for several months was fed strictly weeds, greens and some carrots/squash. He was regularly soaked when indoors, had a humid substrate (dirt/sand) to hide in, and also spent a lot of time outdoors. He appeared to be growing more smoothly before he was sold at about 9 months of age.

Although I've considered it from time to time, I've never kept any of those smaller guys. Being in Missouri, I wouldn't be surprized if you had a bunch of those eastern and/or ornate box turtles. My dad has a farm in eastern KS. Both species are abundant on his farm and in the surrounding area. I've seen many over the years and many of the children back I know back there keep them intermittantly as pets, as they show up frequently in the road or in the yard. Again, I've never really had the desire to keep them for some reason. All the snakes back there, however, is a different story. I've kept many of those!

Anyhow, thanks again for your posts. I really appreciate all the great info.

I've found that there is ever growing evidence that there are 2 primary factors that are going to have the greatest effect on pyramiding and those factors are heat and hydration. In the case of tortoises, if you stop and think about it, none of the other processes can take place if these are not right.

Keeping the tortoise at a temperature range of 75 to 95 (or so) is a good range to give it a choice of what it needs for the time of day. I think a water dish should be available at all times and your schedule of regular soakings is great. Providing a humid hide in the form of a section of the enclosure or an actual box or retreat is also a good idea. Now add to this a good diet and I can almost (in biology there is only one given... there are no givens) guarantee a good looking tortoise.

Leopard tortoises are grazers and browsers which normally feed on grasses shrubs and dark leafy plants in general. I usually suggest grasses, hay (orchard or Bermuda) and dark leafy greens in addition to the occasional fibrous fruits and berries. To this I highly recommend the feeding of Mazuri tortoise diet once or twice a week.

With the above info, protein should be of no concern at all. Feeding frequency should not be a concern, either, if the tortoise is active and healthy with a good amount of space to move in considering the above diet suggestion.

From the responses to your post you'll see that there is no 'one right way' to keep these guys. I like to suggest that you take in as much info as you can and use what works for you and I hope this helps.

Here is a second generation Leopard that is one year old. It was raised in a shoe box in and incubator with no UV and a constant temp of 86F. The substrate is sand with 1/2 the box kept moist.

It is fed Mazuri once a week and green matter ad lib.

>>I'd like to know what some of you are doing to prevent pyramiding in your torts. I have some juv leopards within minor pyramiding (which I'd like to minimize) and some hatchlings that I'd like to prevent the pyramiding from occurring at all. Can anyone give me some pointers (i.e., reduced feeding schedule, high fiber food recommendations, regular soaking schedule, etc.)?
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>SSSammy
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I am also using Mazuri, which they seem to love. I offer it about 2-3 times per week with yard-picked grassess (Bermuda I think) and dandylions in between. My torts love the dandylions, however, do not seem to be too fond of the grasses for some reason. I occassionally throw in some dark leafy greens (e.g., romaine, kale, carrot tops, spinage, etc.) and fruits (e.g., mellons, berries, banana, etc.) from the grocery store. Every so often, I put in a cuttlebone and slice up a prickly pear cactus pad which they also like. I keep them outdoors most of the year, as I live in SoCal where it is usually hot and dry. During cold weather (like now), I keep them indoors, on heat, and under a single UV light. In their pen, I also have a cow's skull (primarily for aesthetic reasons) which they also chew on from time to time. Admittedly, it sounds like I have not been supplementing enough. Which supplement is considered the best for torts?

Thanks again. All great stuff!

If you're feeding Mazuri that much I'm guessing you don't feed a large quantity. With the diet you layed out you should have a perfect looking tortoise if you are keeping it warm and well hydrated.

There is no reason you should need to add any supplements.

>>I am also using Mazuri, which they seem to love. I offer it about 2-3 times per week with yard-picked grassess (Bermuda I think) and dandylions in between. My torts love the dandylions, however, do not seem to be too fond of the grasses for some reason. I occassionally throw in some dark leafy greens (e.g., romaine, kale, carrot tops, spinage, etc.) and fruits (e.g., mellons, berries, banana, etc.) from the grocery store. Every so often, I put in a cuttlebone and slice up a prickly pear cactus pad which they also like. I keep them outdoors most of the year, as I live in SoCal where it is usually hot and dry. During cold weather (like now), I keep them indoors, on heat, and under a single UV light. In their pen, I also have a cow's skull (primarily for aesthetic reasons) which they also chew on from time to time. Admittedly, it sounds like I have not been supplementing enough. Which supplement is considered the best for torts?
>>
>>Thanks again. All great stuff!
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care