Reptile & Amphibian Forums

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

1. safer for the snake (no risk of being bitten by a dead mouse)
2. safer for another reason (frozen is ess likely to be harbouring parasites)
3. convenience (I can keep a years supply in my freezer and not worry about running out)

Perseus

You can produce frozen thawed from all of the other formats.

Animals that will eat frozen thawed will generally eat everything else.

Cheaper if you do not breed, easier to manage if you do.

Widely available.

Eats f/t is a selling point.

Downside: Packaging, freezing, thawing and making them dance is a time consuming pain.

1. I hate rats!
2. I don't have time to clean a rat barn.
3. I have better uses for my property than to dedicate it to raising rats for my snakes. I can't imagine my neighbors would be too happy to know that I had 200 rats breeding in my backyard, the association would be all over me.
4. I don't need the extra hastle, expense and responsibility of having more animals than necessary.
5. Don't have to worry about rat poop in my snake cages.
6. Don't have to stick my hand into a cage (to retrieve uneaten rat) with a panicky rat and a snake that's likely to strike.
7. Don't have to worry about any feeding accidents to my snakes and I don't have to babysit every feeding
8. My kids can help feed the snakes and I don't have to worry about them accidently dropping one to have it dissappear in the house, or have one of my kids get bitten in the process.
9. Can stock up for several months and don't have to worry about my rats not breeding - more rats are just a phone call away.
10. They say freezing kills lots of bacteria, parasites, etc. - does this matter? I don't know.
11. Dont have to kill off the old breeders just because they have outlived their usefulness - not too keen on this.
12. Did I mention I hate rats and I'm more than willing to pay someone else to go thru the hastle of dealing with them!

Extra time to feed F/T? Refrigerate them the night before and stick them under a heat lamp for 10 minutes before feeding. Much less time than cleaning out a rat barn I'm sure.

Exploded guts - you are overheating, use a temp gun, it rarely happens.

Left overs - most people agree they can be refrozen once or twice - left overs are few and far between at my house - but because I feed in shifts if there is a left over it will get fed to someone due to eat the next day. Feeding costs me about $1.50 a month per snake - if I had to toss a couple of leftover rats - I don't think it would be considered a big financial waste.

Tho there might be some great conviences to feeding live - I just had a rat in mid constriction scratch the hell out of my favorite snake (not fully converted to f/t yet) I was lucky that I was watching over the feeding and caught the rat foot after a few kicks - but the damage was done - and that is by far the biggest waste of all.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

i feed frozen and live but mostly live. i think its easier to just get a mousy or a ratty and put him in the tank and if the snake eats it then thats it if it doesnt you can try again the next day and the next and the next. so really if you only have few snake to feed then live is probably better. i was going to order from rodentpro butmy father didnt want to because i couldnt make up my mind of what i wanted. so for now i still feed live, only 50 cents a mouse or 2.50 a rat so its not that bad.
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Nick Nack Patty Wack Break Your Pet Rats Back

Kevin

$1.5/snake/month
do you get rats for under 40 cents???
or did you mean a week???

also, alot of people breed their own rats/mice for economic reasons.
So to clean a rat barn is not an option no matter how we feed.

TomChambers

I pay around $200 for a three month supply that I feed to about 45 snakes - they all eat once a week except during winter when some go off feed. If I only buy once a month it runs about $90 shipped - if I buy a six month supply it runs around $400.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

90 per month. For how many snakes. If you dont mind me asking
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

She said 45 snakes.

Quig

totaly missed that went back and looked and there it was.
thankyou though
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

If even 30 of the 45 ate every week for 6mos
30*26=780 food items/6 mos

$400/780=$.51 per item shipped (averaged)

I must be missing something.
I have never seen prices that cheap even without shipping costs.
unless your feeding mostly hatchlings.

Rpro doesn't even sell a weaned rat for that cheap.

TomChambers

to the average buyer, they would never sell that cheap, but when you buy regularly, and in bulk and are on first name basis with the people working there, i bet you get deals. i know up her in ca i can get them for about 2$/ med rat live and individually, so it isnt that far fetched

I don't know what to tel you my f/t bill this year was $576 I've had between 30 and 50 f/t eaters since mid march and they all eat pretty much every week up until November. Go figure.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

The reasons everyone listed for using f/t are valid, I can't argue with any of them. It is still a pain. Some snakes don't like them. Those that will eat them at good times, like in the summer when they are hungry, might not eat them at other times. If you rely on F/T, you might have a hard time getting a female to eat the last few meals you are counting on for her to get her weight back. I pre kill most of the rats, if they don't eat then I freeze them. If they don't eat a f/t, you have to throw it out. I freeze some during the year and use them during the lean times when the snakes aren't picky and will eat everything. It is much easier to get new babies to eat live rat pups than f/t.
Mike

my balls don't eat frozen stuff.......

they eat live.......and all kinds of rodents

and like said...it's a pain anyways
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..................gottaLuvIt!!

i agree fully , i find it reduces my feeding bill significantly to breed my own rats, and what they dont take, i freeze for the times when i dont have the right size.
with 3 adult rats, i can breed enough feeders to supply my 4 adults, 2 yearling, my 2 corns and my bull snake.
it is a matter of economy for me to feed fk.
besides nothing smells worse than exploded rat guts from a rat that has been refrozen and thawed a couple times.
also i like to see my rats alive before i feed them to make sure i am not passing on any rats that arent safe for feeding, i am always worried about the sanitary conditions the rats that are pre frozen were kept in.
one of the biggest rodent wholesalers here has horible conditions in their rat bins, and i wouldnt put it past them to sell rats that died for other reasons as frozen.
i dont play with my snakes health,
i am against feeding live, my snakes dont always grab by the head, and alot of the time, the rats heads are pressed against the back of my snakes heads while constricting, if the rats were live, they would hurt my snakes before i could do anything.
besides my snakes seem to prefer fk. and if it is still kicking all the better.

>>with 3 adult rats, i can breed enough feeders to supply my 4 adults, 2 yearling, my 2 corns and my bull snake.

How do you pull this off? Feed once a month? I have a rat colony of over 30 female breeder rats and I still need to get rats from other sources just to feed my snakes.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Because its less of a pain in the arse to thaw out rats than a drive across town to get rats from the petstore.

If I had live in my house, I would feed live instead... no thawing, no drive to the petstore. And I actually like rats, so keeping 150 in my garage wouldn't be a problem if I had enough snakes to make it worth my while.

If you aren't feeding f/t now, try it, see if you like it. Some people find it less messy, others find it more messy. It really depends on what you get annoyed by or could care less about, such as traffic, prices, shipping, odor, and the feeding process....

Ok keeping with the string. What are the best places to order f/t from
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

or SCREAM.... I know, I'm a wimp... but I can't stand it when they squeal, while being constricted.

Also I have a hard time finding the right size live (in small qtys) near where I Live. With a small collection it's way too much trouble to breed my own.

BRGDS,
AVD

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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

1. I feed my snakes to meet their nutritional needs and not my entertainment needs. I've heard of people who feed live because they enjoy watching their snakes hunt and kill. I don't have a problem with people who feel that way, but I just don't find the spectacle all that exciting. Furthermore, my ball python likes eating in the dark, so my watching either for entertainment or safety reasons would be difficult. Feeding f/t means that I can leave her food on the tile outside her favorite hide and she can just reach out and take it when she's ready to eat. Usually, she does so when I'm not watching. Tonight, I had the rare priviledge of halfway seeing her take her second food item, and it was amusing to see a white mouse suddenly wave in the air as she positioned it for swallowing. However, I'm just happy to see the food gone in the morning and know that she took a good meal.

2. I want to keep snakes. I don't want to keep rodents. With two snakes, I have time to do a reasonably good job meeting their needs and enjoying their company. Feeding f/t fits my life, and unless someone can persuade me that doing so is bad for my snakes, I'm not interested in having to go to the trouble of raising rodents.

3. If I had to drive somewhere to buy a rodent every week, I'd spend about twice as much time and money feeding my snakes. Feeding f/t means that I can either order over the internet or buy f/t from a pet store in town. Either way, I can buy enough that I don't have to drive somewhere every week.

4. The idea that freezing kills microrganisms that could be harmful to my snakes sounds reasonable. If so, then f/t should be healthier in that respect.

5. My snakes will not be injured by a f/t rodent.

6. If anything ever happens to me and someone else must adopt my snakes, having them on f/t increases the chances that they will be able to find a good home.

7. I've heard that feeding live rodents makes snakes more aggressive. I'm sure that this question can be the topic of endless debate. I don't know the right answer, but the possibility is another reason to stick with f/t.

I'm still too new to the hobby to have strong opinions about whether there is a "best" feeding option. If I wanted to become involved in breeding and keeping large numbers of snakes, I might try to run my own experiments to arrive at an opinion of my own. As it is, the fact that people fall on each side of the issue is reason to believe that feeding what is most convenient for me is no less healthy than the other options.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

"The idea that freezing kills microrganisms that could be harmful to my snakes sounds reasonable. If so, then f/t should be healthier in that respect."

From what I have been told, freezing does kill off microrganisms, But it can also take some nutes from the food too.

Look at people food, fresh is ALWAYS better for you, wouldn't it be the same with snake food?

When you freeze something, it will lose some of it's nute content, maybe not much, but it will lose some.

So you could say it's helthier to feed live/fresh killed.

I'm going to be wrapped in family stuff soon, so I probably won't get back to this thread. I'll leave you the last word but leave a few points.

First, I don't know for certain that freezing takes nutrients from rodents. That assertion sounds reasonable, but I haven't seen (or looked for) data. Are you sure of this fact or are you making a assumption? I think your assumption sounds reasonable, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Secondly, without some other evidence, I wouldn't draw any analogy to human food. People need a variety of food types to be healthy while snakes live entirely on other animals. That fact alone is reason not to argue from analogy. Maybe fresh food is better for both people and snakes, but the differences in dietary needs make the similarities coincidental and not analogous. Furthermore, fresh food may be nominally better for people, but the difference is not a huge factor in overall health and quality of life for most people. A few people may see a real improvement in health from eating fresh food almost exclusively, and others will receive a placebo effect. For most of us, the difference isn't significant.

Thirdly, if the nutrient loss on freezing is relatively minor, then those nutrient needs can be filled by feeding more f/t food items. In that case, the nutrient needs are still met, and the question is whether the risk of feeding more to make up that loss is greater than the risk of feeding a live animal that may contain harmful germs. Has anyone done a thorough study to quantify this risk? The fact that so many people have been successful with both techniques suggests that the risk is about the same for each option.

Fourthly, while live food is a more "natural" option, "natural" may not be healthiest in the false environment of a cage. The difference in living conditions may dictate a different food type. I'm not sure how one would study this idea, but it's a point that would need to be addressed.

I don't think the evidence supports the assertion that any of the favorite options are "healthiest." I can see advantages and disadvantages to each, but so far, I haven't read anything that suggests that one is better than the others.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

From what I've read captive bred feeders provide more nutrients than most captive animals need - as much as 30% more - I doubt that that much is lost during freezing - also a majority of the studies I've read regarding nutritional values of whole food items generally order their rodents frozen so I'm thinking if there was a significant loss they would point that out. Tho it does seem reasonable to assume some is loss - a significant loss is questionable.

Also - Im not sure whether or not - if you are talking whole food items - if fresh would be considered better than frozen - there are lots of parasites and bacteria that can be harbored inside or out of an animal that might be better off being killed prior to digestion. We aren't talking a fresh steak from the butcher we are talking whole cow from the field.

Tho there is not right or wrong answer - you feed whatever your snake will eat - I have snakes that eat only live - and they have nips and scratches from their food items - if I had a $10K animal I would sure be pissed if it were all dinged up but if it only ate live then yeah thats what it'll get.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

As I had said it was what I had been told. A few months ago, may-be six or so, on the burm forum, it was brought up(even got a "hot topic" thing). That is where I got my info from.

For me, I feed all fresh kill, all but my sand boa, she gets frozen 1-3 day old pups. I do breed my own, and sell a few extras as food. For the last month or so I have sold enough to cover all the money I spend on food and bedding for the rats. So If you don't count the time to care for the rats(as I don't), I get most my food for free.

"Freezing has been known to kill certains types of parasitic organisms, however, there is very little data to show that feeding freshly killed rats is a detriment; I've know some long term burms (over 25 years of age) who have fed on nothing but road kill!...personally, I wouldn't chance that. In fact, a freshly killed rat probably has more nutrition as the freezing process can break down certain vitamins. Whatever is most convenient for you is acceptable as long as you get your rodents from a quality source; that is probably the most important consideration. I have been feeding f/t rodents to my burms for many years and have never had any problems but do supplement this prey with periodic vitamins to make up for any deficiencies. Hope this helps.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL"

"In fact, a freshly killed rat probably has more nutrition as the freezing process can break down certain vitamins."

That is what I was going on, I had to look it up in the archives to find it, but there is.

I buy live and kill them just before feeding. I hate thawing mice and rats, and they smell bad. I think the snakes "appreciate" fresh food, too, and there is no risk of them getting bitten.

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1.1 Ball Python 1.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon 1.0 Solomon Island Boas 0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband