Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This topic came up in the milk snake forum, and I think it's pretty important so I thought I'd share.

I don't know how many times that I have seen snakes with otherwise simple care requirements suffer at the hands of EXTREMELY ignorant pet store employees.
I have witnessed this on more than one occasion!
I don't know why so many pet stores seem to have never even bothered to have read a single thing about the animals they are trying to sell!

Practically ANYBODY I have ever talked to about my snakes (who has never cared for much more than a cat or two) already assumes that I feed them mice!

But, so many "savvy" pet store people are so far off the mark when it comes to reptile care, that it is laughable (although it is quite sad).
I have been in SEVERAL pet stores that had CRICKETS(!!!) in their corn snake, Cal king and milk snake cages!!!
They should really be thrown behind bars and fed crickets themselves for a couple of months to see how they like it. Seriously, such idiocy and ignorance is not excusable.

This is why, in part, whenever I have to enter a pet store and buy a live rodent or two for one of my picky live-only eaters; whenever the person behind the counter inevitably asks what kind of animal I am feeding, I then say with a serious look on my face, "Bogertophis subocularis." LOL
I do this just to see them try to act like they know what I am talking about. And at the same time, I hope it will put a fire in their butts to learn something about the poor, unlucky ophidians in their care.
Later
Dusty R.

Sorry Sir but hatchling snakes DO eat crickets. Ken

.

I'm sure most of the people on this forum would agree that while an occasional baby rat snake will eat crickets (or earthworms, or small fish, etc. etc.) the vast majority of them will not, and to provide crickets as the sole source of food to a cage full of baby rat snakes is irresponsible at best...Plus, I would question the nutritional value of a cricket diet for what is primarily a rodent eating species...

SR

Anybody knows(...well apparently not anybody) that their natural wild diet is lizards and small frogs, and then when they get old enough to overpower larger prey, rodents. Look it up.

I think it's sad when someone takes the rare exception to the rule and runs with it; more particularly sad when dealing with live animals...because many will likely suffer.

"Sorry Sir but hatchling snakes DO eat crickets. Ken"

Yeah, one or two might eat one, and the MAJORITY will also starve by them being offered to them.
I can't tell you how many dozens of piled-on-top-of-each-other (another irresponsible pet store practice), emaciated, starving hatchling rat snakes I have seen with showing ribs and sunken skulls, while your so-called delectable and juicy crickets are walking all over them and their cage, unnoticed and uneaten by the poor starving baby snakes.
If the snakes love crickets so much, why don't they just reach out and grab one, if only to save their own life, Ken?

In the same vein, anyone who has ever tried to offer unscented newborn mice to a brand new clutch of eastern hog-nosed snakes will lose the MAJORITY of the babies, if they don't quickly offer them baby toads or toad-scented prey.
A couple of the babies might live, maybe, having never been offered a scented prey item or toad, but the majority will starve to death.
It is the same thing with crickets and hatchling rat snakes, milks, kings etc.
I personally have had to save and revive dieing baby corn snakes from starvation after being hired on by a "misinformed" pet store owner when I was a teenager, so I know first-hand what I am talking about!
It would be unpleasant, but maybe I should take a picture of the next clutch of dieing "insectivorous" rat snake skeletons that I come across that are being offered for sale in a pet store. Because you see more of the latter, not the former.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but pet store animals suffering because of lazyness and ignorance frustrates me to no end. And I have had my fill of witnessing it.
Dusty R.

We have 2 issues here...One: I think we all agree that many petstores take terrible care of their snakes. And they should, indeed, be offering their young snakes pinkies.

Two: Do ratsnakes eat crickets? And...Are we to assume that all there is to learn about our snakes comes from care sheets and books.

When Ken first posted his pic, folks accused him of having a fake photo. Since then, we have heard from several breeders who have used crickets to stimulate a feeding response in non-eaters. And, yes, I'm talking corn and other ratsnakes. They ARE eating crickets, and in some cases the crickets are helping to "turn on" the feeding switch that was stuck in the OFF position.

So don't be so quick to judge. OK...Judge the shops with their emaciated snakes and obviously ignorant staff. But don't think for a minute that those care sheets and books have all the info. They don't. Great pic, Ken. Chirrp Chirrp! Duffy

You abslolutely correct! If a cricket gets a feeding response from a non-feeder than chrip, chirp! Of course I wouldnt suggest continuing this food source but its better than losing a precious baby! I have actually read in some nature books that baby rats and corns will eat insects or anything else they can catch. Think of how small these guys are in the wild when they are hatched. Not a lot out there to get them going! Anyway, Ken if it gets a baby to eat, great job! If pet stores are using this as a main source of prey items, they need their hand smacked and HARD!
-----
"No I have never eaten snake!"
A quote I find myself using everytime someone finds out I have snakes.

Chirp, chirp!

Don't know what happened there.
I am postive that baby corns/rats are as oppurtunistic as can be, catching almost any small thing they can fit in their little tube bodies.
But I would like to see some stats on feeding responses using crickets someday.
It would also be neat to see a report on the stomach content of some wild juvies(ie. %lizard/%frog/%other).
Make me a believer.
Later,
Dusty

Some data would be very interesting, indeed. I may post an inquiry on one or more of the forums. Will let you all know what I find. Duffy

There are two issues here. Forgive me for getting a little heated earlier. I had fealt that Ken was accusing me of being wrong about the second issue that he brought up. Wow...this is getting to sound pretty juvenile. LOL Shame on me.
I was talking about pet stores dumping crickets on a litter of baby snakes. That's fine as a supplement, but not as the staple diet.
Ofcoarse there are some rat snake babies out there that do eat crickets. From what I've seen, I would guess considerably less than half, though. Any numbers, anyone?
And OFCOARSE all the care sheets and books in the world don't have even half the useful info out there. I am quite aware that there are COUNTLESS ways to turn on the "feeding switch". Heck, sometimes taking a snake for a drive around the block will do it. All sorts of environmental stimulation will do the trick.
Later on,
Dusty
www.subocs.blogspot.com

Yeah, one or two might eat one, and the MAJORITY will also starve by them being offered to them.

The reason I posted the picture and reply is because your post insinuates that corn snakes do not eat crickets. This is a huge misconception that is frequently perpetuated on this and other forums.

I can't tell you how many dozens of piled-on-top-of-each-other (another irresponsible pet store practice), emaciated, starving hatchling rat snakes I have seen with showing ribs and sunken skulls, while your so-called delectable and juicy crickets are walking all over them and their cage, unnoticed and uneaten by the poor starving baby snakes. If the snakes love crickets so much, why don't they just reach out and grab one, if only to save their own life, Ken?

The problem does not lie with the prey items offered but with the husbandry employed, as you mentioned. Throw some "delectable and juicy" newborn mice in with the piles of starving snakes and see how many eat to save themselves. Not as many as you might think. Your starving snakes are not eating for a reason and its not the food item offered.

For the record I DO NOT recommend feeding crickets to colubrid snakes as a sole means of sustenance. CIAO. Ken.

Ken,
Not an American Dream fan (although that was my nickname in high school football). That's my real name.
I agree with you to a certain extent. The husbandry issue is a problem with snakes being piled on top of one another, etc.
That brings stress, perpetuates parasite cycles, etc.
But I have seen this scenario with both (1)snakes that were offered solely crickets and (2) snakes that were offered pinks.
The ones offered pinks seemed to have a healthier body weight and much less stressed without having crickets constantly crawling over them.
My main point is that it is the lack of knowledge of what baby snakes should be eating that bothers me.
I never meant to insinuate that they won't eat crickets.
Dusty

By the way...
Did you read Shelley's post below? Pretty interesting stuff.
Later,
Dusty

Sometimes you just need to jump start a hatchling.Just getting them feeding can sometimes be a miracle.
Murpy

Well... we WERE talking about pet stores. lol I don't think pet stores are trying to illicit a feeding response from some non-feeders here. That's not the issue. Usually, the issue is either ignorance or neglect.
DR

Dusty Im not trying to shoot you down.I would never feed any of my snakes a diet of crickets.I would like my snakes to live more than 6 months at a shot.
Murph

I hear you, Murph. My bad.

I read somewhere (and I wish I could remember where) that most neonate snakes are genetically imprinted on appropriate food items for the species (i.e. baby garter snakes would pursue fish scented cotton swabs, but not mouse scented swabs), however it was discovered that out of any given clutch a small percentage of babies were not imprinted, but were true opportunists, and would essentially try anything that moved and they could overpower...the thinking was that if an entire clutch of babies is suddenly flooding a relatively small environment, all feeding on the same prey, there may not be enough to go around, but if a small percentage will eat anything it improves the survival chances for everyone...I'm guessing the cricket eating rat snakes represent that small precentage...

Oh, and Dusty, the next time you see a tank full of starving baby snakes and crickets, and the pet store manager refuses to take your advice, call the local Humane Society...I have worked with the officers at our Humane Society for nearly 20 years and in that time we have successfully prosecuted pet stores for failing to provide proper care for snakes, lizards, birds, etc...you may need to testify as an "expert witness" and you should be prepared with care sheets and books...

SR

"Oh, and Dusty, the next time you see a tank full of starving baby snakes and crickets, and the pet store manager refuses to take your advice, call the local Humane Society...I have worked with the officers at our Humane Society for nearly 20 years and in that time we have successfully prosecuted pet stores for failing to provide proper care for snakes, lizards, birds, etc...you may need to testify as an "expert witness" and you should be prepared with care sheets and books..."

Ok I want to ask your opinion then. There is a local pet shop where I live that in my opinion is HORRIBLE. They ALWAYS have at least 6 corns in one 10 gallon tank. There were visible PILES of defication and 4 regurgitated pinkies that were at least 2 days old and every one of them is emaciated. They have at a minimum 3 2-1/2'-3' boas AND one burmese python in 1 55 gallon with 0 hides. When I had confronted him on it before he said "Oh yeah, I meant to clean that" and the next day nothing was done. I am not sure how reptile savvy my local justice system is. How should I go about taking care of this problem?
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Well...Humane laws differ somewhat from state to state and I'm not sure where you are..here in Pennsylvania the law unfortunately doesn't address overcrowding in pet shops, but it does state that "no animal can be deprived of clean and sanitary shelter" and "no animal can be deprived of necessary vet care if it is sick or injured", so we would approach your situation from that angle...To find out what your state humane laws are, type in "Humane USA Cruelty Laws" and it'll give you a list of states and their laws...once you've determined which laws are being violated by your pet shop owner, call your local humane society and ask to speak to the humane investigations department, or a humane society police officer...tell them your concerns and offer yourself as an expert witness; let them know you would be willing to testify to the conditions you saw and that you have knowledge of snakes and their proper care...Good luck!

SR

Pet shops get there license from the Dept of Agriculture.One phone call with a detailed description is normally enough to have it investigated.They show no mercy and do follow up visits.
Murph

thank you that is very helpfull. The first time I went to this shop I found it odd that they "don't have a guarantee on reptiles because too many people treat them badly so they die"
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Just last week, my wife and I saw a tank full of really small baby corns in the nastiest condition. My wife was more appalled than I was, and I'm the snake guy!
We were both unsure of who to call. So I will contact the local Humane Society.
Nice bit of info on imprinting, by the way. Makes complete sense.
Are you an attorney?
Thanks again!
Dusty
www.subocs.blogspot.com

I would say that we have general agreement on both points:

1. Pet stores that are keeping their animals in awful conditions are deplorable. Any actions that we can take, from attempting to educate...to boycotting...to making formal complaints, would be warranted.

2. Baby ratsnakes probably DO eat bugs sometimes, although none of us would consider this to be a food item of choice & we don't want to give the "new kids" the impression that feeding insects to ratsnakes is good common practice.

I posted an inquiry on the corn forum that may be worth following...In part as a result of Dusty's question. Got one interesting response thus far.

Peace & Happy Holidays Duffy