Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am a big fan of feeding snakes live food, especially at the pinkie to hopper levels, but I chose to read the article advertised on the kingsnake.com homepage, "Feeding Pre-killed Prey to Reptiles" by Jonathan Rheins to see what the "other side" had to say about their point of view.

For the most part, the article makes a good argument for pre-killed prey. I don't agree with the author, but the article is decently written.

However, I feel that I need to point out a major mistake in the article that could cause problems for snake owners. In the seventh paragraph of the article, Mr Rheins states,

"Additionally, by freezing the prey item solid, any potential diseases and or parasites that may have been present in the rodent are unquestionably killed."

Understand that freezing uncooked meat, be it mice for the herps or beef for us people-type folks, in IN NO WAY kills disease or bacteria in the meat. They are put in stasis by cold, even extreme cold, but generally, they will not die.

Do not think that frozen feeders are any more safe than live rodents, especially considering the fact that frozen feeders must be left out to thaw and raise their temperatures to room temp.

Rodents for herps cannot be cooked, thus there is no sure way to rid them of disease or bacteria on the herp owners side of the equation.

the snake cant get bit, and its cheaper anyway
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

>>"Additionally, by freezing the prey item solid, any potential diseases and or parasites that may have been present in the rodent are unquestionably killed."
>>
>>Understand that freezing uncooked meat, be it mice for the herps or beef for us people-type folks, in IN NO WAY kills disease or bacteria in the meat. They are put in stasis by cold, even extreme cold, but generally, they will not die.

I agree that some bacteria may and possibly does survive freezing, evidenced by an unfortunate encounter I had with a chicken pizza a while back.

But parasites are a different matter than bacterial or viral disease. To the best of my knowledge, more complex organisms such as lice, fleas, and intestinal parasites are killed by freezing.

That with other benefits such as cost, convenience, safety for the snake (from a retaliating mouse) and humaneness for the prey animal mean that I'm sticking with f/t.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

>>>>"Additionally, by freezing the prey item solid, any potential diseases and or parasites that may have been present in the rodent are unquestionably killed."
>>>>
>>>>Understand that freezing uncooked meat, be it mice for the herps or beef for us people-type folks, in IN NO WAY kills disease or bacteria in the meat. They are put in stasis by cold, even extreme cold, but generally, they will not die.
>>
>>I agree that some bacteria may and possibly does survive freezing, evidenced by an unfortunate encounter I had with a chicken pizza a while back.
>>
>>But parasites are a different matter than bacterial or viral disease. To the best of my knowledge, more complex organisms such as lice, fleas, and intestinal parasites are killed by freezing.
>>
>>That with other benefits such as cost, convenience, safety for the snake (from a retaliating mouse) and humaneness for the prey animal mean that I'm sticking with f/t.
>>-----
>>0.1 chickens (Condor)
>>0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
>>0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
>>0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
>>1.1 parents
>>Still searching for 1.0 WC human
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

to any reptile. I feed mostly frozen/thawed but do on occasion give live..Ive never had a problem but one thing I wont feed is an overly aggressive adult mouse or any larger rats(they can really be dangerous)..I have given hamsters live once,,stupid thing actually went up and sniffed the boas nose and got tagged in the face..But like I said only on rare occasions...Frozen is the safest way to go and the snakes dont seem to care one way or the other...
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When I use to breed mice I had to cull baby pinks and the father mouse use to come out of his hide and bite the crap out of me! And I had thick gloves on, imagine if a head shy ball python got its head tagged by a fat male adult mouse! That would be inhumane. And I serriously don't know how they do it in the wild, maybe because most are 3 times more meaner and grumpier that they can take a blow. Hoppers and fuzzies live are ok in my book though.

HA! Factor rat bites in. I have pet rats, and sometimes they nip me when they think I have food. Those hurt, too. I can't imagie being bitten by a rat when it's pissed off or scared to death.

People say that they'll intervene if there is a problem, like the prey attacking the snake. But I'll tell you, rodent bites hurt much much more than snake bites.
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0.1 Irian Jaya carpet python
0.1 Ball python
0.3 Crested Geckos
2.2.7 Leopard Geckos (male-jungle, hypo tangerine carrot tail. female-normal, albino. babies-leucistic, blizzard, normal)
0.1 Western Hognose snake
1.0 Eastern Milksnake (currently free roaming in my home =/)
1.0 Albino Lavender California Kingsnake
1.1 Bearded Dragons
0.2 Water turtles
1.0 Umbrella Cockatoo (belongs to my mom and I)

Tell me about it. In spite of wrestling with wolves, having my nose viciously attacked by a ferret (don't ask) and being bitten by non-venomous snakes up to an 11 foot burmese, the only lasting scar I have on my body from an animal is from a pet rat that bit my knuckle so hard you could hear the teeth grinding against the bone! It still hurts just to think about it...

DEATH TO RODENTS!!!!!!!!!
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

ive interviened with a pair of pliers before, actually any time the mouse can move its jaw
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Understand that freezing uncooked meat, be it mice for the herps or beef for us people-type folks, in IN NO WAY kills disease or bacteria in the meat. They are put in stasis by cold, even extreme cold, but generally, they will not die.
Do not think that frozen feeders are any more safe than live rodents, especially considering the fact that frozen feeders must be left out to thaw and raise their temperatures to room temp.

This isn't true. Freezing does kill many types of bacteria and it also kills adults of most parasites. Yes, some bacteria survive in an inactive form and some parasite eggs and cysts do survive. But freezing IS safer as you reduce the risk of parasites and bacterial transfer.

Your point about thawing at room temperature is a good one, but I don't think thawing mice as that big a threat. Many people thaw mice in hot water, reducing the time available for bacterial growth. You can also thaw them in ziploc bags or covered containers to reduce the threat of bacterial contamination during the thawing process.

Snakes are tough. Most of them readily consume carrion in the wild and are capable of dealing with the consequences. When you balance that against the consequences of the deep puncture wounds that mouse bites become, it seems a no brainer to me.

Since feeding prekilled prey is safer. I have never heard a good arguement for feeding live prey other than "I like to see my snake kill stuff". If that is your situation, OK. I think you are making a mistake, but you are entitled to do so.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Thank you Chrish, for addressing the what I had to say about frozen prey. I get frustrated when people take a too-basic stance on an issue.

And you're right, it is my choice to feed my snakes live food. I have an Eastern hognose that won't eat anything except thawed pinkies.

I appreciate your insight on the parasites; I knew the eggs could live through the freezing process, but I wasn't certain about the adults.

As far as bacteria goes, the snakes do have hearty immune systems, I just wanted people to understand that freezing food doesn't rid it of the threat of infection.

An eastern hognose should be eating toads, frogs and salamanders....not rodents.