Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
my female cham is almost 3 weeks gravid. The last few days (5-7) she developped edema at the neck/chin area. She darkened her color few days after I moved her in the egg laying cage (12 days ago). Other times she turns lighter green again She eats, drink, and etc.... with no problem, but I don't like her appearance and, mostly I am worried about the edema. I read it could be too much Vit A, but I don't give her straight Vit A, she gets Beta Carotene in the Herptivite and Calcium w/ vit D3. I also read that some females get edema at the neck area as they get close to lay eggs and the body is under stress...I am attaching pictures.

Does anybody know anything about this and tell me what could be the problem with her?? I am so worried!!

Thank you

I don't have experience in this area, but I'm sure if you described your feeding abd supplimenting routine, the replies could be of better. What feeders are you using, how often?

good luck in your efforts correcting this. Best of wishes.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

>>I don't have experience in this area, but I'm sure if you described your feeding abd supplimenting routine, the replies could be of better. What feeders are you using, how often?
>>
>>good luck in your efforts correcting this. Best of wishes.
>>-----
>>CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I feed her mainly gutloaded crickets and mealworms. I used to supplement her with calcium w/ D3 twice a week and vit. one a week. She was fed the same when she was in the "main cage" with others (before she got gravid) where she didn't show any problems and everybody is doing fine. I wonder if she is just able to eat more and better being by herself and ended up absorbing more than before. After reading articles about Vit A toxicosis combined with Calcium w/D3 I am cutting off the vit. and reducing Ca for the moment; then she'll be on once a week Ca (unless she needs more after ovodeposition) and vit. once a month. Also, even if she was getting too much supplements (and that woudl have been for 9 days), she wasn't getting straight Vit A (she was getting Beta Carotene) and, based on what I read, Beta Carotene even if it is too much will be converted in Vit. A only up to when the needs are met and will not lead to an overproduction of vit A, hence toxicosis.
I am still not sure about her problem.... If anybody knows, PLEASE HELP.
I wonder if it is really true that her gravid state could be the cause of the edema...I know it happens with horses but, I don't have that knowledge about cham.

ha, you replied while I was writing my reply...
You're absoulutely right in cutting the vitamins,
I've had many of my own chameleons develop edema over the years,
the formula seems to be stress plus vitamins plus calorie rich food plus not enough water equals edema.
The added stress of being gravid, along with being moved
may have been enough to tip her over the edge.
garrett

>>ha, you replied while I was writing my reply...
>>You're absoulutely right in cutting the vitamins,
>>I've had many of my own chameleons develop edema over the years,
>>the formula seems to be stress plus vitamins plus calorie rich food plus not enough water equals edema.
>>The added stress of being gravid, along with being moved
>>may have been enough to tip her over the edge.
>>garrett

Sorry for a question that might seem silly, but again I have not much experience yet with this small animals: How to do you give them a shower? I just tried and she was climbing all the time on me...unless I took a shower with her I couldn't figure out a correct way for doing it! Anyway her color was the nice light green she used to be before I moved her, that was comforting me a little. I Mist her cage several times a day and turn on the dripper twice a day (she likes drinking from this better than the water from the mister).
Yes, she has brand new UVB.
Seems like you had few cases of edema...how did they go? Did they all recover?, if any didn't recover, for how long have they been under unfavourable condition? My cham was in this new environment (unfavourable condition for her taste) plus supplementation regimen for about 9-10 days before she developped edema. I stopped Ca and vit. since I notice the edema (that is 4 days ago) is this already too much?

thanks alot

I've had three chameleons develop it,
all but one survived (that was years ago before
I knew anything about it.) If it's only developed over the last week, she still has a good chance of recovery.
Just give her lottts of water daily for a few weeks,
and cut down the amount of food she eats to give her
kidneys a rest. You should start to notice an improvement after about a week. After that if she doesn't look better, or worse.. vet. It usually takes a few weeks to a month to completely clear up, unless there's permanent kidney damage.
I would also take a look at your gutload, if it's a commercial
brand it may contain large amounts of protien which could
be exascerbating the problem. I would cut the gutload out
and feed good leafy greens and vegetables, oranges etc. to your feeders until she clears up.
garrett

I would stop using the herptavite and cacium with d3 immediately. Try gutloading your feeders with good whole
foods instead (fruits, veggies, SMAll amounts of carrot for vit. a, or use a good natural commercial gutload) and hydrate her in the shower daily for a few hours at a time to help with her kidney function.
The best way to clear edema is lottts of water, reduce
food intake to a minimum (light fasting), stop all vitamins, and expose them to unfiltered sunlight (which may be hard to do since it's winter, second best is replacing your uv bulbs, or a get a powersun like lamp.)
Since she's gravid, I would still continue
using plain calcium (no d3), but in very small doses (once or twice a week, "sparingly" Edema gravid means trouble-
you don't want to reduce the caloric intake too much, or you'll effect the development of the eggs, but at the same time the female's organs need a rest to clear the edema.
Every case of edema I've ever dealt with was caused from excess
vitamin "dust". The stuff is very potent, most people use too much of it (imagine coating every meal you ate with a white vitamin powder, you would probably start to have problems too
If given in too large of quantities without enough water it puts a tremendous strain on the liver and kidneys causing edema.
There is also reference to lack of iodine in the diet causing edema, but I've never had any luck with adding iodine as a treatment.
If she's not too far gone it should clear up in a few weeks to a month if you cut the calories & vits, and hydrate like crazy. Permanent organ damage will occur if left untreated..hope that's not the case.
good luck, keep us posted.
Garrett

>>I would stop using the herptavite and cacium with d3 immediately. Try gutloading your feeders with good whole
>>foods instead (fruits, veggies, SMAll amounts of carrot for vit. a, or use a good natural commercial gutload) and hydrate her in the shower daily for a few hours at a time to help with her kidney function.
>>The best way to clear edema is lottts of water, reduce
>>food intake to a minimum (light fasting), stop all vitamins, and expose them to unfiltered sunlight (which may be hard to do since it's winter, second best is replacing your uv bulbs, or a get a powersun like lamp.)
>>Since she's gravid, I would still continue
>>using plain calcium (no d3), but in very small doses (once or twice a week, "sparingly" Edema gravid means trouble-
>>you don't want to reduce the caloric intake too much, or you'll effect the development of the eggs, but at the same time the female's organs need a rest to clear the edema.
>>Every case of edema I've ever dealt with was caused from excess
>>vitamin "dust". The stuff is very potent, most people use too much of it (imagine coating every meal you ate with a white vitamin powder, you would probably start to have problems too
>>If given in too large of quantities without enough water it puts a tremendous strain on the liver and kidneys causing edema.
>>There is also reference to lack of iodine in the diet causing edema, but I've never had any luck with adding iodine as a treatment.
>>If she's not too far gone it should clear up in a few weeks to a month if you cut the calories & vits, and hydrate like crazy. Permanent organ damage will occur if left untreated..hope that's not the case.
>>good luck, keep us posted.
>>Garrett

will switch to Ca w/out D3 and still reduce it. Thanks.

The best way to shower her is to put her on her own tree in the shower. Be sure not to cover the drain hole with the plant.Set the shower to warm and the lightest mist/dropps you can make it. Put 1/2 the tree under the spray and 1/2 out of it.Then close the door/ curtain so the area retains the steam. Check often to make sure the water is still warm. She might climb for a while, or even get on the bottom of the tub and try to climb the wall. But after a while she will sit on her tree under it. Mine all do, butt in the spray, head out. And lean they're head down to drink. They learn to love it. Good luck!

I am glad you posted this! I just noticed today that my female veiled was getting a fatty neck like in your picture. She layed her eggs a month ago, and we were giving calcium everyday for about three weeks, because we heard that after laying a large clutch of eggs, they use alot of calcium when producing the eggs. We dont use vitamin dust, we gutload our crickets.

you might want to follow the same advices I have received, seems like she could have the same problem of my cham. If the crickets are gutloaded it still is a form of supplementation that combined with the daily Ca may result in the chin edema.

Merry Christmas to you all.

Chiara

Don't worry about it right now. Gular edema is a very common occurence in gravid Veileds. It should go away in a couple of weeks once she lays her eggs. Continue to give her the calcium but every other day while she is gravid. If it doesn't go away after she lays her eggs then I would start worrying about her. All of my Veiled females have developed Gular Edmas while gravid, it looks pretty bad but it is common. Good luck with the eggs.

hope this is her case...if it is, you made Sunshine (my fem. cham) Christmas!

Merry Christmas

Chiara