Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Dusty, glad you posted those pics. A little history, that "silver" suboc was collected by Shawn Deveroe in 1999 in the Christmas Mtns. when we were both there and I got it from him. There has been skepticism by people that have only seen pics of that snake and I can't say it's unwarrented. I have never gotten a good pic of that snake. I will say that every hunter who saw it in person said anerythristic. At the time I thought so too but now I would say more correctly it is hypoxanthic. There is not a trace of yellow on the snake anywhere however the head and the longitudinal dorsal stripes that connect the H-Bars are a faded brown. The ground color is gray and the H-Bars themselves are black.
Last year I bred it to a wild caught normal female suboc also from the Christmas Mtns. I got six babies and all were normal dark beige. I no longer have either of the adults or the babies.
In 2002 Ric Blair and I collected another "silver" at Black Gap. The colors are exactly the same as the Christmas "silver" except the gray is much lighter. Last year I bred her to a wild caught normal male from Black Gap and produced 4.3 and I kept 2.1, Ric got 1.1 and Shannon Brown got 1.1. All of those babies were very pale cream, but not white and not silver. The 2.1 I kept are developing more color and they look like they are going to be just normal light colored subocs. This year I bred the same pair and got 3.3 and all are just like the ones from the previous breeding, pale cream. I will refrain from commenting on Sighthunters snakes because I have not seen them in person and I know how inaccurate pictures can be.
Now a little info on the so called gray phase that is mentioned sometimes in field guides. I have read there is a gray phase that occurs naturally in the Franklin Mtns. I do not think it could be very common there because I have a friend who hunted the Franklins alot for many years for lepidus and he has seen many subocs there but never a gray phase. Maybe there is a population in the Franklins where they are common but everything I have heard and what you just reviewed indicates that it is a rare morph that occurs sporadically throughout their range. I think the natural gray phase and the "silvers" I have and have had are possibly the same thing and I think that is that they are naturally occuring but rare hypoxanthic subocs. I think the variation from very light to regular gray is is possibly the same gene acting on different base colors.
My opinion is based on ten years of hunting west TX and I have seen hundreds of wild subocs of all phases, cream, yellow, orange, biege and even light army green. My sincere opinion is that the "silver" Black Gaps will prove to be simple recessive. "Silvers" did not show up for me in the first generation from 2 clutches and I have never seen a snake that is (in person at least) so obviously a color morph of some sort eventually prove out either simple recessive or co-dominant. I would not be suprised if all those you mentioned, including the axanthic blonds were compatible. The reason I think even the axanthic blonds may be compatible is because they already lack the longitudinal dorsal stripes so there are no stripes there to be brown. This could also acount for the lack of any brown on the heads of the axanthic blondes.
Anyways that is just my personal opinion and I am not claiming it is 100% correct. I should be able to bred the unproven het males to their mother in 2007 and maybe I will find out for sure about at least my snake then.

in response to dusty.

Hey Aaron,
Thanks for the post. I think you may be on to something with the hypoxanthic animals. And I'd like to see your silver female. If you would, shoot me an e-mail.
I've heard different things about the Frankin Mtn. grays. Bob Dellis of the San Antonio zoo first described them in 1963. But as you say, it is a "morph" that has popped up sporadically over their range. And they are not common, it seems.
Interesting about the orange near El Paso. Ever found any subocs in or near Hueco Tanks? If so, what color? Myself and three others that I know have orange animals from the river road near Panther Canyon.
I believe (or I'm guessing) that Craig Trumbower used a light grayish animal to "clean up" his silver blonde lines. He told me that his are nearly silver-white and that he perfected the silvers with a very reduced pattern as well.
Wayne Howell has some Trumbower silvers and they are noticeably different. Robert Cox also has some. My 2.1 triple hets came from one of Craig's silver females, so I am excited to hopefully produce silvers in both the H-pattern and blonde pattern from that bloodline.
Talk to you later,
Dusty

I have an orange from West Rancherias just down from panther canyon but my orangest came from Black Gap!

The closest to Hueco Tanks I ever found a suboc was in the Quitman Mtns. southwest of Sierra Blanca; I can't remember what phase it was. Me and Shannon were together when we found that killer light orange one he's got from River Rd. We also found a dark orange one on Black Gap road. I also recall a real nice yellow we found on River the same night as we found the light orange one. The lightest normal I've found was a light cream one me and Shannon found at Black Gap. Another stand out was an sorta army green one my friend Jim Dobis found in the Christmas Mtns. It was a big and old looking snake but it was real neat. I wish I had more room to work with more color phases but right now I am only working with the silver/gray Black Gaps. I'll see if I have a pic of the silver/gray Black Gap I've got.

Well here is a pic of the female silver/gray wild caught Black Gap.

Thanks for the photo, Aaron. It'll be interesting to see what her genetics are.
Hueco Tanks is a cool place to go. I remember seeing some Crotalus there, and I would bet that subocs are there too.
Funny you mentioned the green phase from the Christmas Mts. Mike Price has a real nice 'green blonde' from the Christmas Mtns. off of 118 that I'll post on the site soon.
Dusty

What happened to Mikes lemon yellow blonds? I noticed last time I was at his house he was down to only a few snakes?

I believe Mike shares his animals with a friend, so they are probably at his house too. From what I know he still has the lemons.

Yes they work together. It sounded like when I talked with Mike he liquidated a lot of his collection.

I still have may original Gap male if you want to hook them up next year.

Thanks for the offer but I want to keep her here. Maybe we could trade babies somwhere down the line.

of the KC aera got a suboc that threw silvers and he propagated the offsprings . The female was found just out past Lajitas Texas. That was back in the late 80ties.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Yes. I think he's the guy who Gregg Geaster got his H-patterned silvers from. And Lajitas makes sense, because Mark and Kim Bell's snakes were blondes from that area and they threw silvers too.
Dusty
www.subocs.blogspot.com