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need some advice on new Hognose............

rj1204 Dec 27, 2005 11:53 AM

I put a post or two up earlier and appreciate the help on this forum. I have had many different reptiles and am brand new to the hognose. I purchased a baby (born in August 05') last weekend. He is in a 10 gallon tank with "under tank heaters" covering a little over half of the enclosure. I have 3 hide areas for him at various spots, part of the cage has paper towels and most is covered by astroturf. The water bowl is at the cool end of the tank. My house stays around 68 degrees in the winter and the tank stays in the high 80's at the "hot" end and 69 and the "cool" end. My hognose spends some time in the warm area but most of the time in the corner of the cooler area.
Is this normal? Do I need to raise the temps at the cool end? Also, he did'nt take the pinky I gave him last week but I figured he is probably still adjusting to his new home. Thanks for any advice, they seem like great snakes.

Russ

Replies (4)

hissytry Dec 27, 2005 02:33 PM

I have been keeping hogs for a little more than a year now so I'm still fairly new to this game but since I have 4 that are healthy and eating very well I'll try to give you a bit of info on what I've learned. I've found that baby hogs don't really feel secure in a tank as large as 10g. That size tank is good for an adult. I keep my '05s in 5 gallon tanks. I have found that hide boxes are pointless if you are going to have them on aspen bedding, they would much rather just burrow in it and create a little network of tunnels. Are the hides you have for him small enough for him to feel secure? I would also try to raise the temp on the cool side a bit and the warm side could stand to be a bit warmer too. Just make sure that the under tank heater does not burn the little guy. Hope this helps a bit.
Jonathan
Link

Colchicine Dec 27, 2005 10:19 PM

As suggested in the replies to your previous post, the overall temperatures are too low. 68° on the cool side isn't necessarily bad, but it needs to be counteracted with a proportionately hot or warm side.

My other suggestions include getting rid of the Astroturf. I personally consider it to be a horrible substrate, and is positively unsanitary. Switch the substrate over to Aspen.

For heat, simply add a heat lamp to the hot side of the tank.

I am including an article below I am working on, and this will be my first posting of it. It is unfinished (there are SEVERAL very relevant sections that need to be completed), and unrefined at this point. It is the beginnings of what I hope will be a small hognose web site that will contain articles on several reoccurring themes of hognose husbandry. I am also willing to take suggestions on the content of this article. Take a look at it Russ, I hope it will be enlightening.

________________________________________________________

The text below is intended to offer suggestions about the captive care of hognoses (Heterodon only) and its relation to feeding behaviors, specifically the lack of appetite.

I frequently use the term anorexia to describe the condition of the nonfeeding hognose. Generally, anorexia is considered to be the loss of appetite, especially as a result of disease, and should not be confused with the human condition anorexia nervosa.

This also provides information on the ideal level of captive care. I don't think that any of the suggestions I listed below are unreasonable and beyond the level of care of any novice.

Weights
The importance of keeping track of a hognose's weight can not be overemphasized. Animals are famous for hiding their afflictions, and it is up to YOU to determine if the snake is sick or not. And given the typical lack of evidence provided by the snake, the best way to monitor its health is by keeping track of its weight. Ideally, a digital scale will provides you with all the information you need for your entire collection. These typically run at a minimum of $100, but there are spring scales available that are widely used and just as good. http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=6394

I hear many people on the forums claim that their hognose is not eating, and is starting to look skinny. This is a good time to point out that the vast majority of people who are wrongly convicted of crimes were actually convicted based primarily upon an eyewitness accounts. Our perceptions are too easily distorted, and without supporting empirical evidence, making claims about the fat storage of the hognose is useless to me.

Maintaining a database on the weights of animals is a doctrine closely followed by many zoos and aquariums, and is a necessity for anyone a collection. So how often should you do it? At the minimum you should take a weight once a month. But the way I look at it is even after the course of a year, you are only going to have 12 numbers to compare with. Plus you have already dropped anywhere from $30 to $150 on a scale, why not use it?

For a sick, new, or concerning snake, you should take a weight every week. Otherwise, twice a month will give you plenty of numbers to work off of when there is a problem. I promise you that you can take measurements for 9 or 10 months and consistently get the same numbers and wonder why you are going through the trouble, but it will all pay off when you really need to use it. Veterinarians will love you for it!

The general rule, which is not really based upon anything particularly scientific, is that if an animal loses 10% off its healthy mass, there is a cause for concern and corrective actions must be taken. I think this is a pretty good rule to use as a general guideline.

Heat Source
Heating captive hognoses has been a special interest of mine. I have several opinions to promote that I don't often see other experts repeating. One important overriding factor influencing how you should provide heat to your hognose is their natural activity patterns. Hognoses are exclusively diurnal. This means they are most used to basking in the sun in the early morning. I think it is very important to mimic the greatest natural variable, the sun. Therefore, the primary heat source for a captive hognoses should be a fixture that produces both light and heat (a light bulb basically).

Why not use under tank heaters?

A large portion of the popular captive herps are nocturnal at least seasonally. Under tank heaters are great for these animals that intuitively will rest on rocks or other structures that have absorbed heat during the day and are giving off the heat at night. For these animals, deriving heat from below them is perfectly natural. For hognoses however, never being nocturnal means that they always get their heat from above. My theory for the sources of heat for hognoses is supported by the monumental work by Dwight Platt in 1969 on the natural history of Western and Eastern hognoses. He clearly states that hognoses burrow DOWN to escape high heat in the late summer months and enter a quasi-estivation state. To me, it is clear that hognoses in captivity should be allowed to go UP to get warm, and go DOWN to get cool. The ability for a captive herp to thermoregulate their own body temperature cannot be emphasized enough. They should be able to get as warm as they like, and get as cool as they like.

This discrepancy isn't necessarily going to kill a hognoses, but in the effort to optimize captive conditions for health and behavior, this should be something to consider and is one of the easiest things to change. Under tank heaters will certainly suffice for some hognoses, but I positively don't think they are ideal for hognoses. They certainly have their place as a supplementary heat source, especially for nighttime heat.

Despite the popular consensus, thermal preference measurements in wild snakes shows that hognoses have a preferred body temperature in the low 90s. A thorough explanation is in the link below.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=899391,899391&key=2005

Full Spectrum Lighting.
By far, the most undervalued component of captive husbandry, and it is true for hognoses as well. In general, snakes do not need a source of UVB lighting that is necessary for the synthesis of vitamin D3 in the skin, which in turn is necessary for metabolizing calcium. Instead, they get all of their vitamin D from the livers of the whole prey they regularly consume.

However, there is another component of the ultraviolet spectrum that may play important roles in the health and behavior of captive snakes, especially in an exclusively diurnal snake like a hognose. UVA is supposedly beneficial for the coloring and behavior of captive herps.

I had the fortunate experience of working with a veterinarian who was not only herp savvy, but was very much an enthusiast at one time. He continually emphasized the need for ultraviolet lighting for an entire herp collection. He claimed he had a finicky milk snake 20 years ago before they were popular in the pet trade. It would consistently refuse to eat without the benefit of ultraviolet, full spectrum lighting. In a few instances, it would actually spit out a half consumed mouse if the lights were turned off! This only illustrates the point that ultraviolet lighting for captive snakes is largely underutilized and may significantly benefit some of those problem feeders.

I am not recommending dropping $80 on a mercury vapor bulb, I think things can be done much more economically. While you're out buying an incandescent bulb and fixture to switch over on your hognose, it wouldn't hurt to invest in one of the cheap "full spectrum" incandescent sold at pet stores. Advertising they are full spectrum is a total lie, as it is physically impossible for an incandescent to produce UVB light. However, they do produce plenty of UVA, and they do it rather cheaply. Perhaps you have some florescent light fixtures (which really aren't good for much compared to mercury vapor bulbs) for others in your collection that you can cycle over to the hognoses once they have "expired" after six months or so.

Everything you need to know about UV lighting.
http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/guidetolighting.htm
And my own rantings about the UV lighting
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=961439,961766

Other helpful links
http://www.reptilesdownunder.com/reptile/enclosure/uvlighting.php
http://www.anapsid.org/uvtable.html

Disturbance
Anybody who knows anything about hognoses knows about their defensive behaviors. They appear to have excellent vision and will literally strike at the chance to flare up and defend themselves. I think their uniqueness also makes them predisposed to stressful conditions in captivity. I think most people don't realize how stressful, and / or disturbing it is for a snake that is constantly exposed to movement and vibrations. It's just that hognoses seem to show it better!

When it comes to a hognoses not feeding, you need to seriously start eliminating possible sources of stress. If the tank is near a doorway, or in a place with a lot of foot traffic, or even frequent music playing, it should be removed and placed in a much more secluded area. In addition, a towel or newspapers can be taped along front and sides of the tank to prevent the hognose friend being able to see out and see potential movement. This very simple act may go a long way towards reducing the stress on a hognose.

Along the same lines, you should also eliminate or significantly reduce the amount of handling, especially if it is by children. When offering the hognose food, I don't recommend trying any more than once or twice a week, depending upon the method.

Overfeeding
Without getting into the feeding controversy of Eastern hognoses, there are a few things to mention that I think are responsible for anorexia in hognoses. Primarily overfeeding. This is a common problem across the boards with captive herps and is not unique to hognoses. Usually with snakes it's not a big issue, but hognoses may be susceptible to the effects of overfeeding (such as the fatty liver disease commonly falsely attributed to a rodent diet).

A bit of a warning here, the next paragraph will be conjecture on my part. However, this opinion is based upon various sources I have read and talked to. I fully intend to back up my premises with supporting information as I come across them.

I believe that hognoses may be one of the few herps that may be calorie self-limiting. I believe that hognoses are frequently overfed and will continue to eat until they meet some calorie intake upper-limit and then will cease to eat. This type of feedback system has huge evolutionary repercussions: if an animal does not NEED any more calories to sustain itself, why risk possible predation to achieve calories it doesn't absolutely need? I believe that the hognose's display of hunger, or feeding frenzy behavior, lends to the overfeeding tendencies. It is yet another fascinating show that some people are willing to stimulate despite the actual needs of the animal.

I've had some discussions on this topic, and here is a small part from a lead keeper from a large zoo on the East Coast.
"If you think about it, a 100 gram hognose is a good sized hog and an adult mouse is fine for it as a food source. Rodents are probably more dense than toads when compared on a volumetic basis (based on visual inspection) so hogs have a wide body that allows for comsumption of a relatively large prey item. This would require them to consume more toads than a comparatively similar sized rodents without reaching the same caloric load. People may overfeed by offering a rodent based on the ability of the hog to comsume it (head size/body size) which may be a size that is excessive in caloric content in relation to the animal's SMR needs. (Or the person may feed multiple rodents to achieve the correct sized lump). "
It all boils down to the mass of the snake. Bimonthly weighings will yield a tremendous amount of valuable information whether or not the animal can maintain its weight on a particular feeding schedule. My personal recommendation for an adult hognoses is a maximum of one adult mouse a week. During the wintertime assuming they are eating, the schedule can be cut back to a mouse every other week. I can positively assure you that no hognose will be starved to death on this feeding schedule.

Substrate
Yes, even substrate may play a role. After all, the unique morphological adaptations the snakes possess, that provides us with an easy to remember common name for them, also pretty well dictates the proper substrate for them. Generally, I don't see many problems with what people use for substrate although I do disapprove of the use of sand. Of course hognoses are most commonly found in areas with sandy soils, but does that mean 100% pure sand? I personally have had problems with sand, as it completely plugged up the nares of a Western hognose I had on the calci-sand type products. In addition, sand does not retain burrows.

In a study on Western hognoses in Manitoba Canada, Kelly Leavesly found that the hognoses had a high burrow fidelity rate, meaning they returned to the same burrow day after day. Hognoses were also rarely observed digging their own burrows, instead relying on abandoned small mammal holes. I think it is much more natural to provide a substrate to hognoses that allowed them to dig very easily, and when they do, the substrate retains that shape. The best choice in my opinion is Aspen, which is also the more popular substrate choice. NEVER feed a hognoses in their tank. Their fanatical feeding behaviors, swinging wildly with their mouth wide open, lends themselves very easily to consuming substrate and the very serious condition of impaction.

Qualifications
The information is based upon my own opinion and experience as a curator of amphibians and reptiles for 5 1/2 years of a collection that grew from 100 herps to nearly 220 and included a dozen or so Eastern and Western hognoses. I have been posting on the kingsnake.com hognose forum since 2000, and I have been the most consistent of anyone else who visits the forum regularly. I also have an extensive collection of hognose scientific literature, currently requiring three 4" three ring binders to keep it all. I have articles going back to 1853 and also theses for master's and Ph.D. degrees from Edgren, Platt, Eckerman, and Leavesley.

-----
Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS

If there is a just God, how humanity would writhe in its attempt to justify its treatment of animals. - Isaac Asimov

rj1204 Dec 28, 2005 07:38 PM

I was using astroturf since he is so young and only about 5 inches. I have a Nelson Milksnake in the tank next to him (33" and planned on switching my Hognose to the aspen when he got bigger. I have a hide under the astroturf so he usually stays under it. Under the turf I have paper towels as the very bottom. I clean the turf with a 5% bleach solution so it does stay sanitary. I just figured it would be easier to care and maintain the hognose with the turf (for now) but if he will feel more comfortable in the aspen, I will try it out. I know there are many different substrates I can use but I want what will make him most comfortable.

As far as heat goes, it just works better when I use the under the tank heater. Today it was in the 80's here in Texas and the tank was in the low 90's on the hot side and 75 on the cool. I think when I switch to the aspen, it will hold the heat better on the warm side and should stay in the mid 70's on the cool.

I have attempted to feed him one time. He ate for the breeder on 12/8 and has been eating one f/t pinky every 10 days. I tried feeding him on 12/23 in a seperate container but he would'nt feed. I figured I would try again tomorrow. Any advise on this?

Thanks again for all the help, I really appreciate the advise and the more I read about the hognose, the more I like the species.

wisema2297 Dec 30, 2005 04:13 PM

I have found that my young hog, as well as my young corns, love to crawl up inside of conch shells that I put in their cages. I place a conch shell on top of the aspen that is over top of the heat pad. The shell warms up as well but is far enough removed from the pad so as to not be too hot. I check this with a digital thermometer that has an attached probe ($7.00).

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