Reptile & Amphibian Forums

np

Roussis Reptiles produced an F2 generation this year from superball x superball - so I'm guessing they aren't.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

cause a neon red spider would to sweet

Well I guess if you find a horrible travisty against nature to be sweet, Well then I guess thats your opinion. There are those of us however that think talk of hybrids belongs on the hybrid forum

Mark

>>cause a neon red spider would to sweet

so why not make a pretty morph. some breeders of other types of snakes would never think about about breeding two snakes of different locals together but i have never seen anybody oon this form rave about so and so's pure ghana or pure bengal local balls and sence you don't seem to be bothered by corssing two local ball why is spieces mixing so upsiting to you? most ball breeding is for morphs so why get upset about it?

Why?

And why would a caramel alb. Blood die?

I think he said that they would have a high probability because of their color, they would stand out to predators.

Respectfully,
Brandon Nixon

Actually that brings up an interesting discussion. How does natural selection against morphs differ for dominant types vs recessive types?

You might figure an albino would be pretty disadvantaged as far as camouflage or even basic protection from the sun (not that they are probably out in it much). Yet they seem to be fairly commonly imported. Presumably being recessive allows lots of not disadvantaged hets to be produced and distributed throughout the wild population.

But how many spiders have been imported? Maybe it's a much more recent mutation but maybe it has something to do with every het being the disadvantaged morph. How about pastels, are more of those imported or more albinos? If pastels weren’t selected against in the wild you would think there would be many more imported than albinos which require the gene on both sides to make a homozygous.

"Well I guess if you find a horrible travisty against nature to be sweet, Well then I guess thats your opinion."

There are some that think keeping snakes as pets is a travisty against nature, then there are some that think breeding morphs is a travisty against nature.some think a woman showing her face in public is a travisty against nature, some think the USA is a travisty against nature, some think hip hop is a travisty against nature, for just about anything you do, someone somewhere thinks it is a travisty against nature.

"There are those of us however that think talk of hybrids belongs on the hybrid forum"

I'm sure your right, some do THINK that, but that does not make them righ. If you want to know about a ball cross the ball forum is a good place to start. Also the ball forum is the most used forum on kingsnake, so if you want an answer, it's a good place to get one.

If hybirds are so bad, why do some of the best known breeders work with them? and don't say for the money, cause you could get more breeding a morph, then you will for crossing a ball into something else.

Every time someone posts about hybirds, some one has to say how wrong it is. Just like the darma ball. Is it a case that you don't like it, so no one else should?

Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

>>I'm sure your right, some do THINK that, but that does not >>make them righ. If you want to know about a ball cross the >>ball forum is a good place to start. Also the ball forum is >>the most used forum on kingsnake, so if you want an answer, >>it's a good place to get one.
>>
No, actually the ball python forum is for asking about ball pythons. superballs are NOT ball pythons and despite their ancestory they never will be. They are hybrids which belong on the hybrid forum

>>If hybirds are so bad, why do some of the best known breeders work with them? and don't say for the money, cause you could get more breeding a morph, then you will for crossing a ball into something else.
>>

Because they are short sighted fools? Perhaps they have a God complex? The only valid reason I can see for artificially creating hybrids is for scientific research and the last I heard, there weren't any big breeders working on a research paper to be submitted to any scientific journals. If there are, I'd love to hear about it.

>>Every time someone posts about hybirds, some one has to say how wrong it is. Just like the darma ball. Is it a case that you don't like it, so no one else should?
>>

When it will affect my hobby in an adverse way, yes I'm going to speak out about it. With all the hybrids coming out, there WILL be a time when you will not be able to guarantee getting a pure ball python unless you get one from the wild. I always thought that one of the reasons for captive breeding was to REDUCE reliance on wild caught animals.

>>Please...
>>Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

My mind is plenty open, it's just not so wide open that my brains are falling out.

"With all the hybrids coming out, there WILL be a time when you will not be able to guarantee getting a pure ball python unless you get one from the wild."

I just don't see that happening with balls. Balls cost to much(morphs), most ball breeders do like to make money(you will make more with morphs then with hybirds), There will allways be people who don't like and will not breed hybirds, thus there will allways be pure balls out there, There is a endless suply of CH balls, they just have to manage it the right way( they are doing a good job as far as I have read or been told).

I know what happend with corns, but I also think alot has been learnd from it, and I don't think anyone will let it happen to balls. look at how long the burm has been crossed with others, there sure is no shortage of pure burms now is there?
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

>>I just don't see that happening with balls. Balls cost to much(morphs), most ball breeders do like to
>>make money(you will make more with morphs then with hybirds), There will allways be people who don't
>>like and will not breed hybirds, thus there will allways be pure balls out there, There is a endless
>>suply of CH balls, they just have to manage it the right way( they are doing a good job as far as I
>>have read or been told).

I DO see this happening and maybe even quicker then you think, primarily due to the fact that there IS a lot of money in Ball python morphs. Just take a look at the classifieds and see how many unproven 'oddballs' are on sale right now for large amounts of dollars. There will be a LOT more in April/May when more imports start coming in. I know it's a real stretch to think of anyone in the reptile industry actually being unscrupulous enough to sell an unusual looking hybrid as an odd looking pure ball python, [he said with tongue firmly in cheek] But just for the sake of argument, lets imagine there is someone out there that would stoop so low just to make a few thousand dollars on a snake that he may not even be able to sell otherwise.

Lets say that Mr Hybrid maker has an angolan python x ballpython backcross that looks a lot like a ball pythons with slightly unusual pattern or color. He sells this 'Oddball' to breeder 'A' who is all excited about this new project. Breeder 'A' then breeds this animal to a half dozen of his females and produces a bunch of snakes where some of them look like the father (those that got a higher percentage of angolan genes) and some look like the mother (those that got a higher percentage of ball python genes) Now, in reality, you and I know that they are ALL hybrids. You can't unmix the genes once they've been combined and ALL offspring will always contain some angolan genes. Breeder 'A' looks at this and says. WOW, this must be a new co-dominant mutation, I'm gonna be RICH..... He then sells his more normal looking offspring as 'co-dom siblings' or even just 'normals' and he sells the extra 'oddball' males to his buddies breeders 'B', 'C', 'D', 'E' and 'F' who also want a piece of the action of this exciting new Co-dom mutation. He keeps the oddball looking females to eventually breed back to Dad to produce supers (which will never happen, because it's not really a mutation). By the time Breeder 'A' finds out that he's been taken, several years of breeding have gone by and there may be a hundred or more offspring out there from the original 'oddball' (that you and I know are really hybrids) And so the captive gene pool has been forever altered by the actions of one person. Who knows? Maybe it's already happened?

>>I know what happend with corns, but I also think alot has been learnd from it, and I don't think anyone
>>will let it happen to balls.

I don't think anyone has learned anything. If they had, they wouldn't still be making hybrids.

that there will be no pure balls left. its possable that if anybody did a dna study on the ball complex then they might very will find that balls from different locals are really subspeices and that all captive ball are all hybrids all ready. not so long ago someone did a dna study on african elephants and found that forest and savana elephants where different spieces all together and that all the african elephants in us zoo are in fact hybrids. so lets see you pure local ball!

How do these look to you?

These are from Ghana according to the importer.

Are they really? Are they pure Python regius? probably, I wasn't there to see them collected but I can't see someone weaving an inticate web of deceit for 25 bucks a piece.

Do they all look like ball pythons? Yup, every one of them.

Are they different subspecies of ball pythons? Since there are no recognized subspecies, probably not. In any case they still look like ball pythons.

Do they all look identical? Nope, balls are a pretty variable species. But they still look like ball pythons.

Do any of them look like Angolan pythons? Nope, not a one.

Do any of them look like Blood pythons? Nope, not even close.

Will they breed true? Since they are pure ball pythons, of course they will.

Will Hybrids breed true? No, since they are made up of genetic material from two completely different species, you can never be sure of what you'll get.

you answered the argument right there. All ball hybids look very different. You will not have a superball mistaken for a true ball python. You will not have an angolan/ball hybrid mistaken for a true ball. If a breeder can't tell them apart they need to stick with thier ant farm. Just wondering what do you think about the labradoodle or the many other pure breed dog mixes out there. OMG they are a travasty (SP) to the world. Get off your high horse and realize that pets are just that PETS. if a hybrid looks better than a true ball python then that will substitute the wild caught animals as people will want them instead of a true ball python. I don't work with hybrids because I don't want to. If you don't want to, then don't.
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

WOW, did everyone in this country flunk high school Biology? Hey Josh, perhaps you should go ask your home room teacher whether or not all dogs are members of the same species. Last I checked they were, but maybe they've been re-classified in states that expect their schools to teach ID. When you find an answer, come on back and post it. I'll be right here riding my high horse....

Mark

actually I do understand that the domesticated dog is one species with just varibility for each breed. I was using it as an example that for pets we commonly combine traits that are desirable. As long as there is no possible way for the created hybrids to passed along as one or the other species or to be released into breeding wild populations there should be nothing wrong with it. If you don't like hybrids that is your choice, but you should not look down on others that do.
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Im on your side Mark. My biggest problem with crossing snakes is when it involves rare species (Angolans) with a small captive population, and few (if any) imports to expand the captive gene pool. I dont like any hybridization, but too many people do, so it will never stop. I just hope that by the time I can afford a pair of Angolans I can find Purebred unrelated pairs to breed. As far as biology goes, I've found that few people on this forum know much about biology outside of their vision system cages. If they knew anything about genetic diversity, genepools, species and subspecies they might not be so quick to cross breed these awsome animals.

If you think that ALL hybrids look very different, you obviously have not seen many hybrids. Many of them can look just like one of the parent species on the surface. But still contain genetic traits from the other hybrid parent that can crop up in future generations.

>>you answered the argument right there. All ball hybids look very different. You will not have a superball mistaken for a true ball python. You will not have an angolan/ball hybrid mistaken for a true ball. If a breeder can't tell them apart they need to stick with thier ant farm. Just wondering what do you think about the labradoodle or the many other pure breed dog mixes out there. OMG they are a travasty (SP) to the world. Get off your high horse and realize that pets are just that PETS. if a hybrid looks better than a true ball python then that will substitute the wild caught animals as people will want them instead of a true ball python. I don't work with hybrids because I don't want to. If you don't want to, then don't.
>>-----
>>2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
>>1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
>>1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
>>1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
>>0.1 graz pastel female
>>1.6 05 normal bp's
>>0.6 04 normal bp's
>>2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
>>4 various corns
>>0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
>>1.0 american pit bull terrior
>>1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
>>1.0 grey cat
>>1.1 bearded dragons
>>
>>a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"I don't think anyone has learned anything. If they had, they wouldn't still be making hybrids."

I'm truly sorry you have so little faith in people, I do think alot has been learnd!!!!!!

And what about the burm? they have been crossed with other pythons for a long time, and there sure are alot of pure burms out there.

I'm not trying to get you to like hybirds, Not at all, I just don't like to see someone down talk them. There is nothen wrong with not likeing them, I don't like boa's much, but I don't down talk them.

And I do think a ball cross sells for a little more then an oddball would, especially if the person with the oddball isn't a well known importer who could get an oddball(you know first pick, not many get buy the first one or two importers).

Besides, as I said, there are alot of people who think as you do, and I'm sure they as well as you , will keep their lines pure.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

The problem with the hybrids is not so much the original cross, but the 2nd generation, 3rd generation etc. crosses and back crosses. In the first generation all of the animals will have exactly 50% of their genetic makeup supplied by each original species and they do tend to have traits from both parent species and most that I've seen obviously look like hybrids. However subsequent crosses can have anything from 0-100% of their genetic makeup supplied by either of the original parent species and even siblings from the same clutch can look so different from each other you can't even tell they came from the same parents. I've seen a few 2nd generation jungle corns that looked just like normal corn snakes or normal king snakes. You COULD NOT tell by appearance alone that they were in fact hybrids. However a large part of their genetic makeup did come from a species other then the one they looked like and those hidden traits can pop up in subsequent generations. It's stuff like that that can really ruin a project that you've been working hard on for many many years.

I've got 'hookups" with a Pastel X Blood.
Maybe, I'll get lucky!! Should be a cool cross. The next time I get a hookup, I'll post pics!!!

by mixing in a ball pythons fat face with the sleek look of a blood???

Black bloods have been crossed with ball pythons, and therefore they don't come in red yet. Also, superballs seem to be a mix of the two traits, so I'm not sure you'll ever get a truly red snake if a sumatran was crossed with a ball python.

I love ball pythons, and I love blood pythons, but both of them look better the way nature made them.

There are hundreds of ball morphs, and blood morphs are on the rise as well. I see no reason to cross the two species at this time.

Misskiwi and Marcs, I couldnt agree more with you!!!
Like Misskiwi said about blood ball crosses, I think the same with the angolan ball crosses(why mess with what nature made)

He's not got a fat head, he is just big scaled!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Always a clown in the crowd. Well, they's two or three in this one, you just quicker today

Quig

amazing how bored you get when everyone else takes the week off work... Its like 2 vacations for the price of one each year!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Extreme hybrids can be entertaining, but I just don't see the point of mucking up perfectly good bloods & short-tails by throwing ball pythons in the mix. Bloods & STP's are cool enough on their own!!

Off to glare at Kev while he looks @ some of my bloods with his mad scientist eye!!! GRRRRRR!

Kara - NERD (and bloodpythons.com!!!!!)

>>by mixing in a ball pythons fat face with the sleek look of a blood???
>>
>>Black bloods have been crossed with ball pythons, and therefore they don't come in red yet. Also, superballs seem to be a mix of the two traits, so I'm not sure you'll ever get a truly red snake if a sumatran was crossed with a ball python.
>>
>>I love ball pythons, and I love blood pythons, but both of them look better the way nature made them.
>>
>>There are hundreds of ball morphs, and blood morphs are on the rise as well. I see no reason to cross the two species at this time.

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www.newenglandreptile.com

I think a blood, or two, is gonna be one of my next purchases. Kara!!! I went to bloodpythons.com and IT'S EMPTY
Guess I'll just have to go to NERDS and look there.

Quig

Yeah, the boards are up, I'm fleshing out the rest of the site shortly, in addition to redoing the NERD site & a few other projects!!!

E-mail me!

k~

>> I think a blood, or two, is gonna be one of my next purchases. Kara!!! I went to bloodpythons.com and IT'S EMPTY
>>Guess I'll just have to go to NERDS and look there.
>>
>>Quig
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www.newenglandreptile.com

And I thought I had a long To Do list...
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids