Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=975304,975304

Chris
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

The big problem I see with this is also is that the seller that sold them doesn't even know how venomous they are. An adult can be equivillant to an atrox bite!
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Holding a Hydrodynastes in your hand does not constitute why the venomous hobby is in trouble. In my opinion, that is the least of the problems. Hydrodynastes saliva is reportedly about as toxic as that of Crotalus atrox however, due to the fact that it is delivered in very minute amounts (much lower yield and very less efficient delivery system), bites are generally not considered to be life-threatening. I just dont think there is a need to jump all over someone who holds a Hydrodynastes in his or her hand and blame that for the downfall of the venomous hobby. The decline can be blamed from highly publicized bites/escapes, people keeping them illegally, and for dealers who will sell to anyone that has a heartbeat. Also, states that have fallen rencently are states that had little or no effective permit system in place. Yes I know Florida's is not full proof, but it is pretty darn good.

Sorry about that Joe! Looks like we were typing at the same time and trying to make the same points. Oh well, glad someone agrees with me anyway Have a great New Years! And watch those deadly shoestrings.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

>> An adult can be equivillant to an atrox bite!

I believe this statement is a bit exaggerated and is based on the reported evidence that Hydrodynastes possesses a venom comparable to C. atrox (or C. adamanteus, or C. horridus, depending on who you speak to). The differences here, and they are HUGE differences, are the delivery ability and the sheer difference in the amount delivered. FWCs have a rather primitive opistoglyphic system and would be hard pressed to deliver an amount within a normal bite that would produce notable symptoms in a normal (non-allergic) person. To deliver the amount typical of even a minor Crotalus bite, I can't even guestimate how long the snake would have to hold on and chew. Certainly longer than any sane person would let it! My point is, I don't personally believe these snakes to be incredibly dangerous, especially not babies. Likewise, I don't believe that handling them in this manner poses any real threat to our hobby. Maybe if the picture was of someone kissing a large adult on the lips, then yeah, that could be cause for concern. But the truth is, they really aren't very dangerous unless you're the one in a million who might be hypersensitive, and even then you'd have to let it hang on a good bit to get in a decent evenomation, which will not happen from a fleeting bite from this species.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

I can understand and somewhat agree with your points, however, one thing that I am most concerned about is the fact that when someone is showing themselves freehandling a venomous snake (regardless the potency of the venom) it shows to other people who dont know any better nor do they care to research it further, that it is OK to freehandle hots. Therefore, you are inviting more trouble into the hobby. I agree with the other issues raised and some more of the concerns that are of a much more severe issue, but at the same time...I think it would have been much more appropriate to at least use proper handling tools. I am not a professional handler and I am not claiming to be. However, personally I think that regardless of the animals potential to deliver a severe envenomation proper handling tools should be used. IF not for the individuals safety, it would be for the promotion of RESPONSIBLE keeping and handling of other hots for the "not so knowledgeable" snake keepers out there.

JMO,

Chris

>>>> An adult can be equivillant to an atrox bite!
>>
>>I believe this statement is a bit exaggerated and is based on the reported evidence that Hydrodynastes possesses a venom comparable to C. atrox (or C. adamanteus, or C. horridus, depending on who you speak to). The differences here, and they are HUGE differences, are the delivery ability and the sheer difference in the amount delivered. FWCs have a rather primitive opistoglyphic system and would be hard pressed to deliver an amount within a normal bite that would produce notable symptoms in a normal (non-allergic) person. To deliver the amount typical of even a minor Crotalus bite, I can't even guestimate how long the snake would have to hold on and chew. Certainly longer than any sane person would let it! My point is, I don't personally believe these snakes to be incredibly dangerous, especially not babies. Likewise, I don't believe that handling them in this manner poses any real threat to our hobby. Maybe if the picture was of someone kissing a large adult on the lips, then yeah, that could be cause for concern. But the truth is, they really aren't very dangerous unless you're the one in a million who might be hypersensitive, and even then you'd have to let it hang on a good bit to get in a decent evenomation, which will not happen from a fleeting bite from this species.
>>-----
>>Chance Duncan
>>www.rivervalleyexotics.com
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

Chris,
Show me where you found it says a Hydrodynastes is considered a venomous species. Under the WCH Clinical Toxinology website, it proves otherwise.

http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.snakes.display&id=SN1543

I was hoping this topic would not get as much reaction as it has and I thought it was rather silly to think handling of baby hydrodynastes was responsible for the recent laws across the U.S.

But that website is trying to suggest the snake has no venom what so ever...

"General: Venom Neurotoxins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Myotoxins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Procoagulants
Non-venomous
General: Venom Anticoagulants
Non-venomous
General: Venom Haemorrhagins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Nephrotoxins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Cardiotoxins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Necrotoxins
Non-venomous
General: Venom Other
Non-venomous "

It took a VERY quick google search to at least find one of our respected forum members saying otherwise.

"Hi mate

We're working hard on various colubrid venoms and Hydrodynastes is on the top of the list to finish by the end of the year. The venom indeed causes local inflammation and there are definate anticoagulant toxins in there as well. Overall, however, I would not rate them as capable of causing a lethal envenomation. However, a very prolonged chew can result in some significant symptoms including transient paralysis.

Cheers
Bryan "

We know the snake has toxins and to deny this is rather silly...no matter what source you provide. Now being similar to a C. atrox bite I somewhat doubt...but I lack the experience of both...yet have seen photos and know people who have taken a hit from both...it looked like the atrox took the cake.

I do not think denying there are any toxic components at all in their "venom" is the best way to answer this issue. Just my somewhat humble opinion.

You have irresponsible, fly by night people, who take on more than they can, because there are irresponsible dealers that will sell anything to anyone. As far as the FWC goes, it's hogwash to say they are comparable to an atrox. I spoke with a well known doctor who was one of the first to do the research on their venom and said that the venom contains certain proteases that are similar to atrox. That,in no way, says that atrox venom and gigas venom are equal in terms of toxicity or damage from bites.
He never compared the two as far as a bite would go. However, in NYS, FWC's are one of the snakes that are on the DEC'S "venomous" list. And given time, I'm sure heterodon will be on that list as well.

..but it will be as a protected species, and not b/c it is a venomous species. Give it a year or two, and you will possibly need an endangered/threatened species permit for H. platyrhinos.

The DEC does have enough sense to know that Heterodon are NOT a dangerous species, but they do need more protection due to their fragmentated distribution.

If that's the case better get all over BGF...we shouldn't be handling rat snakes and hognoses hahahahaha!
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

It is hard to determine why venomous laws are proposed but some are of conviction of the what if ! What if a scenario happens like Huntsville Alabama or the little sleepy town of North Mo. Many reasons. The Kansas law proposed is 2 fold. The possibility of escapes and the possibility of let goes that will propagate and or make Kansas their home.. At least this is what I understand. > Remember that we have a atrox let go problem in a state park already where atoxes shouldn't be. .
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

the real problem is too many people see the keeping of venomous snakes as a "hobby."

Another problem could be rationality of our fellow citizens. I had a school teacher tell me at an educational show there is no antivenom for cobras and they are illegal in the United States. I tried to inform her how each state is different and there is antivenin...just not as well stocked her as rattlesnake antivenin. She said NO not for cobras, that is why they are illegal...and there are people who breed them. People are not rational when it comes to snakes and they are scared.

I do not think it is a great idea to post photos on the internet of free handling an animal so many people do not understand fully. Imagine how a "normal person" would react when seeing a tattoo on the wrist of someone handling a "cobra" (all other elements of a silly common name would be overlooked).

Even with this...I cannot see how this is the reason for the domino effect occuring state by state.

I would tend to think we should refrain from "knee jerk" reactions and try and work together on keeping an informed public on snakes and taking caution of our behaviors.

When I do an educational presentation I mention how some of the colubrids I use are "venomous." Then I explain what it means and why it is safe with Drymarchon and Thamnophis (for example) and not other snakes. I also mention why I would not be doing the same thing with a rattle snake or a cobra.

If I had Hydronastes in front of a crowd I might treat it as a hot and explain why.

I am getting the impression that you are implying that my tattoos have something to do with free handling snakes. I am slightly offended by that. I highly doubt that my handling my snakes is going to have any effect on the laws of owning snakes, one way or the other. If you all don't like the fact that I handle my snakes the way I do, then delete the posting. I was just trying to get more info. I can not find anything on the internet about these snakes, and the guy who breeds them assured me they are safe to handle.
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------Misty-------
5.12 Corn Snakes --- 1.0 Tokay Gecko
2.1 King Snakes --- 1.0 House Gecko
1.2 leopard Geckos --- 0.0.1 Golden Tegu
1.1 Bearded Dragon --- 0.0.1 Savanna Monitor
1.1 Green Iguana --- 0.1 Chinese Water Dragon
0.1 Crocodile Gecko --- 1.1 False Water Cobras
1.1 Jungle Corn --- 1.0 Ball Python
0.1 Kenya Sand Boa --- 0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.1 Emperor Scorpions --- 3.0 Ferrets
1.1 Congo African Grey (parrot)--- 0.1 dog
0.0.3 Prairie Ringneck Snakes --- 1.0 blue tongue skink
always changing # of mice and rats(snake food)

This is an article I wrote a few years ago. Maybe this will help or maybe stir things up which is not my intention.

HYDRODYNASTES GIGAS

All of the talk and questions about Hydrodynastes has prompted me to write and correspond with you all who keep them. Some of the info passed around on the list about these animals is incorrect or not complete. This also holds true for older literature printed.
I was introduced to these magnificent snakes in 1984 at the Nickerson Park Zoo. Max Nickerson gave me a behind the scenes tour at his facility. At this time he was also Head-Vertebrate Division at the Milwaukee Public Museum. Needless to say I trusted what he said. I saw the False Waters and asked a lot of questions about them. When I asked about their temperament he proceeded to open the cage and pull out the snake! I was hesitant at first but he insisted that it would not bite so I held the snake. This snake was between 8-9 ft. long! I fell in love with this animal. So much for them only reaching 6ft!
In 1989 I purchased a pair of these snakes from Louie Poras at Zoo Herp in Utah. The female was 3ft. and had less yellow than the 4ft. male. In 1991 the male was 7ft. and the female was 5ft. I treated them as tropical snakes when I put them together for breeding purposes. I only cooled them to low 70's and put them together with no interest. This was mid-winter. Since they did not breed I decided to sell them. I wanted to take pics of them but, as you know they do not sit still for long! So I cooled them to 60 degrees with hopes that this would slow them down long enough for me to take my photos. I got my pics and put them back together. They immediately began breeding! I discovered by accident that they needed to be cooled cooler than I thought. When the eggs were laid I put them in the incubator at 90 degrees figuring
once again that they should be treated as tropical animals. Wrong again! The neonates died full term in the eggs. I had them too hot. Shortly thereafter I moved and did not have the space available so I parted with them.
I recently purchased a another pair of hatchling gigas. They are het for hypo. The father was hypo and the mother was normal. I'm glad to have these again. They are certainly more popular now.

Now for the facts?

False Water Cobras or Brazilian Smooth Snakes.

Most literature recognizes 2 subspecies (H. bicintus and H. gigas). Mertens in his book "Living Snakes of the World" mentions a 3rd (H.shultzi). He also mentions that studies are in the works that may show all three to be one or the other genus. This was written in 1987 and I have
not found any more mention of it. Some of the photos of H. bicintus look like H.gigas! John Coburn's "The Atlas Of Snakes Of The World", and Dr. Marcos Freiberg’s "Snakes of South America" is the same lame photo. There is a photo of a H. bicintus in Frieberg’s labeled H.gigas. I think the photo captions were reversed and Coburn used the same mis-labeled photo. Campbell & Lamar’s "The Venomous Reptiles of Latin America" has a photo of H.bicintus. It has a lot of red on it. This is a much redder snake than H.gigas. Louis Poras also confirmed this to me by phone conversation. H.bicintus is well known for being a very
difficult snake to maintain in captivity because they do not feed well. This is also mentioned in a paper entitled "Analysis of the Duvernoy's Gland and Oral Secretions of Hydrodynastes gigas (Dumeril, Bibron, and Dumeril) (Reptilia: Serpentes). This is an excellent paper addressing the venom of the False Waters. It is mentioned that most bites occur from the H.gigas related to a feeding response. They could not find info about H.bicintus bites because of poor feeding habits! Most of the bites from H. gigas produced little symptoms but some have produced considerable pain and swelling. A larger H. gigas can possibly do a lot of damage! The toxicity of these snakes is well within the range of many rattlesnakes!
This book also mentions that H. gigas is capable of reaching lengths of 3 meters!
From some of the websites that I have seen concerning False Waters I have seen and read mis-information. I guess it's true that you cannot believe everything you see or read on the net! Just because someone has a website does not mean that they have done the research.
REMEMBER, Schmidt and Mertens died from a rearfang snakebite!

If I offended anyone by this I apologize. This is only meant to assist those interested in the False Water Cobras. I used the following references from my library, which you may wish to check out yourself. Some are obviously questionable.

"The Atlas Of Snakes Of The World" John Coburn 1991

"Contributions in Herpetology" Edited by Peter D. Strimple and Jane L.
Strimple 1992

"Amphibians And Reptiles Of The Paraguayan Chaco Volume 1" David R. Norman
1994

"The Venomous Reptiles of Latin America" Jonathan A. Campbell and William W.
Lamar 1989

"Snakes Of The World" Scott Weidensaul 1991

"Living Snakes of the World" John M. Mertens 1987

"The Encyclopedia of Snakes" Chris Mattison 1995

"Snakes" Johan Marias 1997

"Vivarium Magazine" 4.3 Monique Halloy

“Reptile & Amphibian Hobbyist” February, 2000 Mary Edith Moore

If anyone has more info available I would like to know of it.

Thanks,
Tim Cole
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Hey,
thanks for some actual info instead of bashing. I deleted the pictures to make everyone happy. I did not mean to cause an uproar. I trusted the breeder when he stated the bite was like a bee sting and only causes problems if you are allergic. They handle their babies the same way as me (actually with less care-not paying attention to the snakes movements). I have no idea how they handle the adults, though. I tried to do research but could not find anything.
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------Misty-------
5.12 Corn Snakes --- 1.0 Tokay Gecko
2.1 King Snakes --- 1.0 House Gecko
1.2 leopard Geckos --- 0.0.1 Golden Tegu
1.1 Bearded Dragon --- 0.0.1 Savanna Monitor
1.1 Green Iguana --- 0.1 Chinese Water Dragon
0.1 Crocodile Gecko --- 1.1 False Water Cobras
1.1 Jungle Corn --- 1.0 Ball Python
0.1 Kenya Sand Boa --- 0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.1 Emperor Scorpions --- 3.0 Ferrets
1.1 Congo African Grey (parrot)--- 0.1 dog
0.0.3 Prairie Ringneck Snakes --- 1.0 blue tongue skink
always changing # of mice and rats(snake food)

I do not think their was an uproar.

I was actually leaning in your favor by stating the handling of FWCs is not the cause of venomous legislation.

Your tattoos have nothing to do with your handling or any ability but it is noticeable. I meant no offense. It only fit the cliche of snake lovers being tattoo and piercing biker folk.

I did want to mention I could not deleate anything so the posts will stay unless KS decides to deleate them (I think they serve a purpose so it is not necessary). The photos you took care of...only you and KS could have done it.

We have all seen photos of hot handling and careless venomoid handling. I am sure someone selling a venomoid would tell you it is harmless as well.

I am glad you understand the risk and I too highly doubt a bite from a baby hydrodynastes would be severe but there is a risk.

Understandable. Thanks
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------Misty-------
5.12 Corn Snakes --- 1.0 Tokay Gecko
2.1 King Snakes --- 1.0 House Gecko
1.2 leopard Geckos --- 0.0.1 Golden Tegu
1.1 Bearded Dragon --- 0.0.1 Savanna Monitor
1.1 Green Iguana --- 0.1 Chinese Water Dragon
0.1 Crocodile Gecko --- 1.1 False Water Cobras
1.1 Jungle Corn --- 1.0 Ball Python
0.1 Kenya Sand Boa --- 0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.1 Emperor Scorpions --- 3.0 Ferrets
1.1 Congo African Grey (parrot)--- 0.1 dog
0.0.3 Prairie Ringneck Snakes --- 1.0 blue tongue skink
always changing # of mice and rats(snake food)

The Venomous world is in trouble becouse you have all these Punks keeping Venomous reptiles and thinking they know everything there is to know about them. Hell, all you have to do is read the forums and you will see this. People seem to have the It will never happen to me attitude, But, sooner or later these same people take a hit and find out what life is all about. The only problem is the news gets ahold of it and takes it to far makeing a big deal out of it and getting laws passed all for a simple mistake made by some moron who thought it would never happen to him. Sad but true Money is all it takes to own a Cobra or Rattlesnake. Most hot keepers I know started out with Bitis. Tell me there is nothing wrong with this.
If all of the Hot keepers could work together and put egos aside and stop trying to put down each other for what they do then maybe we could be a force that would be hard to beat but untill then Just sit back and watch your right be taken from you while you are telling the next guy how stupid they are.
Just my $000.02.

wannabes. But isn't most bites or tags in the past months on serious or established keepers ? At least from this forum is what I have gathered.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Every time I get on here one person is running another one down. I come here to learn and hopefully even teach alittle but You cannot do that becouse you have to tip toe around on these forums and worry about saying one thing that will spark a fire in here. It just pisses me off to see this EVERY SINGLE TIME I COME HERE...I have been on this forum for the past several years and nothing has changed..
You have the Good ones here and I love reading what they have to say and then you have the bad one that want to Bash everyone for everything they say. I bet the ones out there doing the bashing are the ones that dont have a clue how to keep these animals For the simple reason they cannot keep there mouth shut and mind open long enough to learn anything.
We as Venomous keepers are fighting a battle against a world that has the notion that we are all Punks and Morons and because of this we need to work together in order to spead knowledge and all of us need to be on top and current. I dont want to lose my rights to keep hots. But, I am sometimes ashamed to say I am a part of the Hot community for the simple reason people into Boas, Pythons, Ect. all think that Hot keepers have this Huge Ego Problem. I dont have a Ego, as a matter of fact alot of people that come to my house have no idea that I have snakes more less Hot snakes. I dont want anyone to know. I am not trying to be cool Hell I prob. handle my Hots sometimes in a manner that people would bash me for but, I think all of the people on here so ready to bash others are hiding something..

Show me a forum that does not have bashing. These are just a new form of vanity press and so are pretty much all about ego. We type to see our own words.
I even see this when sharing thoughts on the forum with the other stunt pilots that date professional cheerleaders half our ages. See, we get to create our own persona and we are probably a tad more perfect than reality.
My 14 year old daughter and I formulated this sequence:

1) Knowledge Age- people used to know stuff
2) Information Age- people could look stuff up
3) Opinion Age- opinions become the information (where we are now)
4) Understanding Age- recognizing 1-4
5) Wisdom Age- putting 1-5 in perspective. Maybe someday we will get here. Frank Zappa possibly did before its time and Bill Cosby may be there.

I think George Carlin said something like this about driving a car, "the person behind you is always an idiot and the person in front of you is always an asshole". These are the same people we let go ahead in line at the store if they have fewer items. Courtesy comes from personal encounters, not anonymity.

Another great American Hero said, "Can't we (hic) just all get along?"

So I guess the bottom line is to remember that forums (fora?) are not a public service. Someone is making money.

The "ego" problem is not just with hots...I'm always amused at the phallic implications of owning (and carrying around) large pythons. I've seen people with boas around their necks walking around in public when it's 60 degrees out. Sort of like walking around with your zipper down.
Anyway, the snake "hobby" does seem to attract some odd ones, although not quite as bad as primate fanciers I decided a long time ago not to keep anything that flings it's poop at me.....although I have seen some kids do that, lol.

FWC...was involved with a pair about 25 years ago that were tame as kittens, but we always treated them with respect. Some of them DO get huge...
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I don't keep hots - simply because I'm no where near the experience level to safely do so. I can recognize this, and it's unfortunate that some others can't. I've been keeping snakes and reptiles for over a decade and I'm still not to a level where I feel confident with a venomous species. I have to trust that if someone is keeping a venomous species they've given it the thought and training needed to do so safely, and can make proper judgement calls with regards to their animals.

Respect for the animal you're handling is something that should go along with ALL animal husbandry, not just venomous species. That's what's missing when ego comes in - people have forgotten that these animals (ALL animals) must be respected, first and formost. They are not OURS, we are simply caring for them. Remember that and give them the respect that is accorded, and everything will be fine.

I do not recognize the snake analogy but I guess the point is that the next time I am driving around in the Mustang convertible with the bumper sticker bragging that the keys are next to the Rottweiler, my zipper should be up. Bummer, the zipper down part was always the best part.

maybe I'll go ahead and take that pic of the FWC giving me a kiss hahaha. Comeon get real!
-----
John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site