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Are you guys as eager as me to get an established captive population of Morelia boeleni going. Only then can you hybrid folks concentrate on ruining that bloodline too!!!

All you folks who want to purebreed boelens have to do is form an association and keep good records. Then don't buy breedstock from outside the association without documentation that they are purebred. I don't even know what a boelens python is but if it can be used to make pretty hybrids, I'm all for it.

I'm locality breeding a line of corns, incidentally. I've used one of the males for corn-bull hybridizing but the females don't get mated to anything that came from even a different county in the state I live in. I caught two of my corn breedstock on my own property and the cat dragged one in a few weeks ago, stiff from the cold, that I haven't sexed yet. If you want to both purebreed and hybridize, this is the way to do it.

Bigfoot

A boelens pyhton (Morelia boeleni) is a medium to large snake found only in selected areas of New Guinea. Rare and beautiful these snakes are VERY hard to maintain in captivity and even harder to breed. No successful true captive breedings have occured. (PLEASE prove me wrong) I pray when (or if) we get an established population of these beauties they NEVER get hybridized with other Morelia species.

Please stop hybridization of any species or even subspecies.

I realize you folks like the looks of them, and can breed at will(that is what is great about the United States of America, FREEDOM) but it is just plain and simple unnatural.

Occasionally snakes do INTEGRADE in the wild, but very rarely, and there is a differance between an INTEGRADE and a hybrid. This is why hybrids dont always and in most cases NEVER lay eggs,or hatch, or have fertile offspring.

"This is why hybrids dont always and in most cases NEVER lay eggs,or hatch, or have fertile offspring."

That is one of the worst misconceptions about hybrids. You are simply wrong there. Hybrids have overall shown no more fertility issues than their pure counterparts. Besides, hybrids are still in their infancy as far as what we can say we really know. Remember taxonomy is madmade, not the final word handed down from a higher power. Man has been proven wrong countless times, most especially by Mother Nature herself.
As far as your others concerns, those involve personal taste and like you said personal freedom. And that is an argument I have beaten to death in the past and no one ever wins.
Just be happy you have (I assume)pure snakes and you can get pure snakes and be happy with that. There is no need to concern yourself with what others are doing unless it is causing you direct harm.

-Yasser

Hybrid Haven

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My biggest concern is hybridizing fragile small bloodlines.Sure,there are plenty of corn,bull,king snakes out there and pure lines will always be available. But small fragile genepool are easily polluted. We dont know much about Angolan pyhtons in the wil and there arent many (if any) being imported. This bloodline could easily become polluted.

As far as fertility and compatibility is concerned,my understanding is that many hybrids dont often reproduce on their first try, and to many it is a surprise that they do produce fertile offspring. I also hear a lot about "tricking" snakes into crossbreeding. Why do you think this is sometimes neccessary? Because its unnatural.

Ask anyone with a degree in herpetology or biology(no you cant get a degree in herptoCULTURE) and you'll see many people against hybridization.

Talk about beating a dead horse.

Let me explain a couple of things to you. First, once a particular species of animals is bred in captivity, it is no longer a wild animal. Some may try to maintain the wild appearance of the individuals they keep but generally, mutations which change that appearance are kept and bred. Think of all the variations of Burmese pythons that may be found in the pet trade. The genetic variations are generally more valuable than the wild type snakes. Unless considerable effort is made to maintain a breeding population of wild type snakes, eventually the mutants get interbred with wild type and it becomes hard to find a pure wild type. Even if this is prevented, the captive breeding population of wild type snakes must be in the hundreds to prevent loss of wild characteristics due to inbreeding. I mentioned in my previous post that I am purebreeding cornsnakes originating in animals caught in the county in which I live. I have no intention of attempting to maintain the variation of wild type coloration found in this county. What I aim to do is minimize the "dirty wash" found in most local snakes so as to produce a beautiful alternative to the Okatee while maintaining the geographic origin of the snakes in the line being bred. You and other boelens breeders can do the same with that species but given you have a limited gene pool to work with (even less than mine), that is the best you can do.

Secondly, hybridization is what happens to plants and animals brought into domesticity. Mules are mentioned several times in the Bible without even one indication God disapproved of their production. The modern domestic meat hog is the result of hybridization between European and Asian species. Beefalo is an established breed with sperm of a good bull going for $25 a straw. The lab mouse is a hybrid. Genes from several different species are being introgressed into housecats. There are lots of wolfdog breeders. In the pen out back, I have a Chinese goose gander, a European goose hen and hybrids between the two. I separated my Peking (mallard) drake from my muscovy drake last spring because the muscovy was mounting the mallard and I was afraid the muscovy's claws would tear up the mallard's back. I put them together again this fall and the mallard mounted the muscovy.

Now, if you start having sex with your snake, most people are going to consider you wierd and some of religious bent are going to get bent out of shape if they hear of it. Otherwise, there is no reason to get bent out of shape if people use (preferably) a boelens male to breed females of some more common species. Of course it is "unnatural," but then a cage is not a natural environment for any snake. The "unnaturalness" comes when you put a snake in a cage, anything you do after that is irrelevant to "natural."

Bigfoot

#1 because a species is bred in captivity it is still a wild animal. Lions and bears are bred in captivity, but are still wild animals.

#2 I dont believe in "god" so save whatever "he" or "she" or "it" says or doesnt say for the godfearering folks.

#3 I know of few people breeding snakes for food or skins and the like. Most of the snakes that are captive bred are for the pet trade.

>#1 because a species is bred in captivity it is still a wild animal.
>Lions and bears are bred in captivity, but are still wild animals.

Animals in captivity tend to be inbred and are also subject to selection pressures not present in the wild. In particular, more tractable animals are likely to leave more descendants than less tractable animals. Over generational time, this will be true even of lions and bears. In addition, mutant white lions are being bred in captivity. If some boelens pythons are more agressive than others, it is the less agressive ones that are going to be more frequently used for breeders, particularly as studs. And whenever a mutation occurs, you can be sure the owner will breed up a bunch of mutant snakes and sell them for exhorbitant prices.

>#2 I dont believe in "god" so save whatever "he" or "she"or "it"
>says or doesnt say for the godfearering folks.

Then you have even less reason for objecting to hybridizing. Breeding animals of two different species together is no more "unnatural" than getting a flu shot. All you are saying is that your aesthetics are different from my aesthetics.

>#3 I know of few people breeding snakes for food or skins and the like.
>Most of the snakes that are captive bred are for the pet trade.

There are lots of animals being bred for the pet trade. Most don't look like their wild ancestors and fewer yet behave like their wild ancestors. Some such as mice and wagtail platyfish are hybrids. Indeed, if I wanted a pure line of wild type platyfish of some particular species, I'd either find a breeder who kept meticulous records or go down to some Mexican river and net them myself. If you want to keep purebred bolean pythons reliably separate from hybrids then it is your responsibiliy to help organize a trustworthy group of breeders who will keep meticulous records.

Bigfoot

"If you want to keep purebred bolean pythons reliably separate from hybrids then it is your responsibiliy to help organize a trustworthy group of breeders who will keep meticulous records."

That's correct, and if this thread has made more people aware that the distribution of hybrids is uncontrollable and will lead to the exctiction of known pure captive lines if such action is not taken then it was worth the critique and ridicule.
After all right at the top of this forum it says for the discussion of issues pertaining to hybrids.

"First and last post on this forum."

This tells us quite a bit about you...seeing as how I am replying to your second post.

There is one way....the American way I might add, that you can further your crusade....take your money and go buy yourself some anchietae and boeleni, there are captive hatched offspring of boeleni out there (Try Bushmaster, Kamuran has had great sucess hatching them out)....and quite a few angolan babies are produced each year by several breeders. Some of the stock that produces each year are WC, some are F1s, you will have no problem getting your hands on a nice group of pure Angolans. And if you are so worried about boeleni, they are available too. Go acclimate a nice adult group. Want to champion this species....go work with them, don't tell others what to do with thiers. None of the big breeders (some of whom invested LOTS money, time, and sweat into thier projects) care at all what you think about hybrids, nor should they. Talk is cheap my friend. I enjoyed working with the two boeleni I have had, and I am sure you will too. This way you can be certain that there are "pure" animals for future generations to enjoy.

And by the way here's a few wild caught hybrids (there are more, but you should do that research yourself, being the president of your association and all)

B. gabonica X nasicornis
B. gabonica X arietans
C. horridus atricaudatus X adamanteus
S. catenatus X C. h. horridus
Elaphe (pantherophis) o. quadrivittata X Elaphe (pantherophis)g. guttata
Lampropeltis g. californiae X Pituophis c. annectens

Nothing that happens is un-natural (humans, and all we do) are inherently natural. How are you to know that the production of fertile hybrids isn't part of the great "natural" plan? These animals are not produced through artificial insemination. You may not like what happens, but it's not to be deemed "natural" by you or anyone else for that matter. Human intervention has had horrific AND good results in this world and guess what....every thing that has happened was "natural"

If it isn't supposed to happen, it won't.

Lastly, I find it amusing that your last post ended with "beating a dead horse" YOU posted here, are YOUR thoughts the last word on this subject? You also posted on the Ball Python forum. It seems you can't stop telling everyone what they should think and do. This is a discussion forum if you don't want to discuss it then don't post your opinion publicly

Horridus@aol.com

And by the way here's a few wild caught hybrids (there are more, but you should do that research yourself, being the president of your association and all)

Nice post but some food for thought. Just because a hybrid was "wild caught" does not mean it originated in the wild. Over the past 30 years I've talked to quite a few morons that confess to releasing hybrids into the wild. Bart you most likely know a few of the people I'm referring to. Anyway while wild hybrids might be possible, the human factor should not be ignored. Another reason I dislike humanity as much as I dislike hybrids. Ken

Nothing worse than being ignorant and bored to tears. You should go buy some elapids.

>>Are you guys as eager as me to get an established captive population of Morelia boeleni going. Only then can you hybrid folks concentrate on ruining that bloodline too!!!
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

You folks got me al wrong. Its not so much that I dont like hybrids, I love every snake. Two headed, scaleless, morphs and yes even hybrids. I just think that hybridization is bad for our hobby and bad for the individual species and their captive bloodlines.

Ou yeah, and I do own a few elapids. Two Mozambique spitting cobras and two monacled cobras that are purebred like their babys will be.

YOU ARE SO FULL IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First you say this;

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Posted by: gabonica2977 at Wed Dec 21 15:09:46 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

...lets take one of the rarest most beautiful pythons in the world (angolans)and cross breed it with one of the most common (ball pythons) Dont get me wrong, I love bps and their mutations(I just bought my first pair of het pieds).
And you avian afficianados, you folks can invest in a hyacinth macaw and then go to the local park or downtown and catch a pigeon and cross breed them to produce a stunning and sought after hybrid bird.
For all the fish freaks out there, I got one for you too.First buy an expensive,rare, beautiful African cichlid. Then come summer visit your local county fair and win a common goldfish.(it's easier than it looks) Breed the two together and BOOM you've just created what every fish hobbyist has dreamed of. You will be the envy of the aquariest world.
I haven't forgotten the equine enthusiests. Simply acquire one of the majestic clydesdales available from a specializes horse breeders out there(I know of one in central Illinois). Next step:Travel out to ol' farmer Browns house and make an offer on one of his best donkeys. Hybridize the two and BAM, you will be regaled by horse lovers for years to come for your foresight and
dedication to the hobby!
I personnally can't wait for an established,healthy,captive population of Boelens pythons to become available.Only then can we proceed to hybridize them with Green tree pythons(Boelendros),Carpet pythons(Boelarpets? Carpeolens?), and scrub pythons(Scuboelens). We can only dream.
I hope I didn't offend anyone by posting this,and apoligize for any punctuation or spelling errors.(I'm new at the manifesto game)But if I changed one mind about hybridization of captive pythons(or any other animal for that matter) then MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Until next time Joe Jano
Esteemed President and only member Hybrid Haters of America

Support our troop and their cause!!!!

Then you say this;

You folks got me al wrong. Its not so much that I dont like hybrids, I love every snake. Two headed, scaleless, morphs and yes even hybrids. I just think that hybridization is bad for our hobby and bad for the individual species and their captive bloodlines.

So either you lied then or your lying now!!!!!

To tell the truth I don't give a sh!t which one it is, you need to grow up and get a life.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

didnt you say you were only going to post once
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)