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Notes on breeding weights, sizes etc for jani and deppei?

gofer Dec 29, 2005 01:39 PM

Hello,
I hope everyone here had a great holiday weekend and have a great New Years weekend coming up. I was just curious to see if anyone has notes on what size, age, weight etc. that they have found it best to breed jani and deppei, both males and females? I have some that are growing quickly, but just wanted to get a feel from breeders who are successful with them already. This will be my first times for both the jani and deppei. Any bad experiences too would be greatly appreciated, too small or young etc.

Thanks in advance, and have a good one.

Gregg F.
-----
Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

Replies (10)

jcherry Dec 29, 2005 06:21 PM

Deppei Deppei and Deppei Jani in our collection are allowed to become at least 3 years old before they are bred. Additionally in most cases they are not bred untill the 4th year. Size is one of the factors that we consider, but the most important factor is maturity. If the females in particular are not completely mature animals the increase in egg binding and infertile eggs increases dramtically. Almost at a 5 to 1 ratio. We do not push these animals at all when they are in the growing stages and prefer to wait a little longer to ensure proper maturity and size before breeding.

In the wild these animals that have a short growing season and an even shorter breeding season. According to Randy and a few others that have physically collected them, they are in every sense of the word montane animals, with all the conotations that goe with that moniker. We try and emulate these montane conditions for our animals. Lower temps, sparodic feeding of small prey etc. etc.

This approach seems to work with the Limburg deppei, a generic line of deppei and the kardon jani that we work with and we have been lucky enough to produce several hundred offspring from them in the last 15 or so years we have worked with them with few problems since we started adherring to this approach. Where prior to the changes in our approach the problems were heartbreaking to say the least.

Hope that helps.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

simias Dec 29, 2005 07:55 PM

Just my two cents - I've been studying deppei the past year, in field and museum collections, and it's clear that the idea these are strictly montane animals is a major misconception. They certainly do occur at 7000', but they also occur in foothills and lower, at 1500-2500'. I'll be writing these data up soon, but for husbandry sake it might be useful to have it out there that depending on one's stock, they may or may not be adapted to cooler temps.

Craig Stanford
USC

jcherry Dec 30, 2005 03:05 AM

Craig,

you are correct in maintaining that these animals can be found in the lower elevations you mentioned. But with that said, please understand that in our and several other sucessfull keepers experience these animals will live for quite sometime kept at normal temps. ( 78 - 82 F.). But over a period of time the feeding response declines, regurge problems start to show up and a general decline ending in death happens many times. That is not to say there are not exceptions, I know a few keepers that have been sucessful with Non-Limburg lines at higher temps. The majority of the highly colored animals in the hobby though seem to have come from the higher elevations of the range.

And so with the majority of them, with lower temps being provided, reduced feeding routines and a few other minor husbandry adjustments they do just fine, reproduce and are viable captives. I understand what you are saying and it is correct, but I would hate to have anyone lose animals from making a false assumption as to husbandry needs.

One thing you might look at also in your research is the difference in the scalation and coloration of the animals collected in the lower elevatons and the ones collected around the Durango, Mexico area and other mountainous areas. It seems as if there is a distinct difference in the different locales, I personally don't think there is enough difference to constitute a different sub-species connotation. But I will leave that up to the taxonomists LOl.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

PS someone emailed and wanted to know why so few were brought into the country back when Mexico collecting was allowed. Look at the unappealing pics of neonates below and you will see why permit space was rarely used on these ugly ducklings.

simias Dec 30, 2005 09:18 AM

thanks John,and I'll be on the lookout for local and elevational differences; should have an answer to that shortly. I recently saw these d. deppei from Juanito in Chihauhua with reddish tails - amazing.
Craig

gofer Dec 30, 2005 01:00 PM

Hello Craig,
Thanks for your information, I would really enjoy seeing some pictures of the deppei locale below with reddish tails. If you have any pictures just shoot me an e-mail if it's easier, gregg@greggsrb.com Were the animals you observed from Juanito very large? Just curiuos.

Have a great new years weekend,

Gregg F.

>>thanks John,and I'll be on the lookout for local and elevational differences; should have an answer to that shortly. I recently saw these d. deppei from Juanito in Chihauhua with reddish tails - amazing.
>>Craig
-----
Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

gofer Dec 30, 2005 12:53 PM

Hello John,
Thanks for the notes and details, I really appreciate them. My jani are over 4 foot now and 3 years old, i'm waiting until 2007 to put them together so I know they will be, or should be plenty large and mature enough to breed. The deppei are only yearlings so it will be a few more years until I'm thinking about those guys breeding. I have found that my deppei are growing much quicker then the jani ever did, but I have a small group so the numbers are not really there to do a good study on. Thanks for your help John, and have a good new years weekend.

Gregg F.

>>Deppei Deppei and Deppei Jani in our collection are allowed to become at least 3 years old before they are bred. Additionally in most cases they are not bred untill the 4th year. Size is one of the factors that we consider, but the most important factor is maturity. If the females in particular are not completely mature animals the increase in egg binding and infertile eggs increases dramtically. Almost at a 5 to 1 ratio. We do not push these animals at all when they are in the growing stages and prefer to wait a little longer to ensure proper maturity and size before breeding.
>>
>>In the wild these animals that have a short growing season and an even shorter breeding season. According to Randy and a few others that have physically collected them, they are in every sense of the word montane animals, with all the conotations that goe with that moniker. We try and emulate these montane conditions for our animals. Lower temps, sparodic feeding of small prey etc. etc.
>>
>>This approach seems to work with the Limburg deppei, a generic line of deppei and the kardon jani that we work with and we have been lucky enough to produce several hundred offspring from them in the last 15 or so years we have worked with them with few problems since we started adherring to this approach. Where prior to the changes in our approach the problems were heartbreaking to say the least.
>>
>>Hope that helps.
>>
>>John Cherry
>>Cherryville Farms
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
-----
Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

tspuckler Dec 30, 2005 09:07 AM

I gotta agree with John Cherry 100%. I've had 7-foot Mexican Pines - it takes a long time for them to get that size. I certainly wouldn't attempt breeding them unless they were at least 4 feet long.

Tim
Third Eye
Third Eye

gofer Dec 30, 2005 10:26 AM

Thanks Tim, the jani are over 4 foot now and I'm not planning on breeding them until 2007 so they will be well over the recommended age and size at that time.

Thanks, and have a good new years weekend.

Gregg F.

>>I gotta agree with John Cherry 100%. I've had 7-foot Mexican Pines - it takes a long time for them to get that size. I certainly wouldn't attempt breeding them unless they were at least 4 feet long.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Third Eye
-----
Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

jcherry Dec 30, 2005 01:03 PM

Gregg,

I think you will find that the deppei will get to 4 - 4 1/2' and really slow down. I am sure you will enjoy them as much as I do. I like the jani, but when you get a hatch of deppei it is almost like christmas trying to fiqure out what is going to be what. They change so much it is uncanny. The group of deppei that I have from Randy Limburg (which are direct from his imported/collected stock) are producing some sky blue ground color animals with big black blotches that are really awesome, it will be a few years before we can see if that color reproduces itself. John Ginter, I believe has also produced a striped animal from the same stock, we were lucky enough to get a partial stripe, but lost it in the melt down a few years ago. When you get a chance post or send some pics of them, I always like to see new animals.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

gofer Dec 30, 2005 01:18 PM

Hello John,
Thanks for the pictures, I will have to get some new ones of both the jani and deppei becuase it's been a while and they have definitely colored up considerably. The colors and striping on some of your snakes is amazing. I know Ginter produced some different animals too and I have his line so i'm keeping my fingers crossed just maybe something different will hatch out here in a few years. I haven't talked to him for a good while. I was hoping to pick up some bimaris from him but I don't believe he produced any this past year. You wouldn't happen to have any bimaris babies in the near future would you? I'm hoping to get some new pics of my subocs and triaspis this weekend so i'll work on jani and deppei pics too.
Have a good one,

Gregg

>>Gregg,
>>
>>I think you will find that the deppei will get to 4 - 4 1/2' and really slow down. I am sure you will enjoy them as much as I do. I like the jani, but when you get a hatch of deppei it is almost like christmas trying to fiqure out what is going to be what. They change so much it is uncanny. The group of deppei that I have from Randy Limburg (which are direct from his imported/collected stock) are producing some sky blue ground color animals with big black blotches that are really awesome, it will be a few years before we can see if that color reproduces itself. John Ginter, I believe has also produced a striped animal from the same stock, we were lucky enough to get a partial stripe, but lost it in the melt down a few years ago. When you get a chance post or send some pics of them, I always like to see new animals.
>>
>>John Cherry
>>Cherryville Farms
>>
-----
Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

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