Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I am looking to get some constructive feedback on a few things from my fellow herpers. I have been keeping reptiles for a little over 5 years now. My experience lies mostly with scrub pythons and green anacondas. I have been interested in owning a hot snake for some time and finally decided to sucomb to it. I am not going to ask if I should or not. I feel that one who decides to venture into this territory needs to be honest with themself and be mature and responsibe enough to understand just what he/she is taking on. I have read numerous articles and visited hundreds of websites and forums. I have thought about a few things. One I am looking into a Mangrove snake as a first being that it is a rear fanged or quite possibly a Copperhead for a first front fanged. I have read that some recommend aggressive fast moving snakes first. Like the coachwhip or racer and see how many times you get bit. Then after look into moving in venomous. I am interested in venomous owners views on this. All species are different and all have different traits and dispositions. All hook differently some much better than others. I am also looking for feedback on venomoids of the specific specimen I am interested in owning down the road. I am 37. I am not looking to show boat or look or act cool. Nor am I looking to free handle it.I am only looking at it for a saftey precaution. I am human and will make mistakes I am sure. I just want to make sure that the ones I do make do not cost the lives of others or myself. Nor one that will cost media attention. I have mixed feelings on them. I ask myself when I get into trouble would having that it is a venomoid be in the back of my mind and do something I would not do it if were not alterd. That kind of defeats the purpose of what I am trying to accomplish here. I feel that alot of them are for people who in fact want to act or try to be cool with them and show off to friends. That is just not the case here. I eventually wish to owning a suphan cobra. So is owning fast moving non venomous best to start with or just staring with the rear fanged Mangrove and just monving up from after who knows a year 2 or 3. Some say just get what you want and go with it. I believe that is a very poor response. That is just nothing but trouble with a capital T.Sorry for the long post but The more knowledge I have the better for me everyone around me and our hobby. Thanks to everyone that reads this and responds. I hope that you all have a great new year.

Welcome to the venomous forum

Ideally, one should seek out a mentor, and learn the ropes so the speak from them. Venomous reptile husbandry isn't that much different from non-venomous reptile husbandry, the fact that the animals pose a significant danger to the keeper being the biggest difference. Still, it helps to see someone else do it and work under them to get the hang of things. However, there are plenty of people who have entered the hobby by the "do it yourself" approach, and have successfully kept venomous for many years without incident. What it really boils down to is this:

95% of venomous herpetoculture is common sense, attention to detail, and the willingness to learn and do research about the species you are keeping.

5% of venomous herpetoculture is skill in handling reptiles...in truth, MOST venomous snakes are not that difficult to manage with the proper tools. There are exceptions, but for the most part, if you keep your common sense handy and don't stray from your comfortability zone, you will do fine. Unfortunately, some people jump in over their heads and get a cobra or a mamba as their first hot, which is simply a case of too much too soon. Start slow, work your way up.

Mangroves are venomous, but not too dangerous. The venom is potent, but delivered in small amounts via an innefficient delivery system (grooved rear fangs), so the threat to a human is small. That being said, they do warrant respect, and if chosen as your first hot, treat it like it can kill you. That way you hone good habits.

Copperheads are often recommended as good starter hots as well. The word "starter hot" is kinda dumb, as no venomous snake is a good "starter" anything. However, some are better for newbs than others (a mamba would be a bad choice, while a copperhead or smaller rattlesnake species would be better). Copperheads are pretty undemanding captives, and pretty easy to manipulate with tools most of the time. So you could hone your skills on them before moving on to other crotalids.

Hope that helped. I'm sure others will chime in with good advice as well. Find a mentor if you can, it definitely helps. Above all, keep a good hold on your common sense, and NEVER do anything you aren't positive you can do without hurting the snake or yourself.

I admire your straight-forward approach about getting into hots before making that move. I can add nothing content-wise to psilocybe's response. The questions I think you need to pose to yourself and answer, are what is it about venomous that you find attractive? Do you want keep an animal solely because it is dangerously venomous? Or, is there a particular snake(s) that you for reasons articulated or not, you simply want to keep above others?
If you answer "yes" to the latter question, then I think you head-on...with all the aforethought you obviously have.
If you answer "yes" to the first question, then I might suggest more thought before aquiring a hot animal.
In other words,if you are sure of what you want to keep, identify and accept the remote but very real risks and do all you can to mitigate them, then you're ready to aquire and keep the desired venomous animal.
Just my thoughts on the subject. Good luck. Be safe.

Well, I don't have any venomous, but I have to say I have a bit of an issue with the "starter hot" thing.The other response said find a mentor, I am much more for that. IF POSSIBLE, decide what snakes you truly want and learn from someone who has them. The issue with a "starter hot" is what happens to that snake when you feel ready to move to the snakes you want?
I'm not getting into venomous for quite some time as the people I know in my area(Iowa) who keep venomous 1.only have rattlesnakes. 2.caught the snakes while traveling and thought it would be "cool". 3.I don't know them by name-only met them a couple times- and wouldn't trust them to teach me how to handle a garter snake.
With the above all I have to work with, and the fact that there are only two venomous snakes(Eastern Gaboon and blackhead bushmaster) I can see myself truly keeping and not selling off to "upgrade" it will be a LONG time before I get into venomous-what do I do with a copperhead when I get the bushmaster I wanted from the start?
IF I get into venomous I am doing everything right-including antivenom, and that alone is a deterrent. A $10,000 plus safety precaution that gets thrown away and replenished if not used in a few years-can't afford it so not starting yet.

It is not possible for all people to find mentors.
And, It is not possible for all people to buy their own AV (in fact, in some places, AV isn't available to the public).
It is your choice to wait decades until entering into hots.
That doesn't mean the next guy has to.
A person can enter into the world of hots with neither, and, by using common sense, and educating one's self, and being aware of the risks, can do so in a SAFE manner.

As for your comments on what to do with 'starter hots' once one is ready for something more demanding...
Either SELL IT or KEEP IT.
What on Earth's the big deal??

Aaron.
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Happy Herping

The deal with "starter hots" is what the concept implys...starting with something "less lethal" in case you screw up. Kinda like buying a .22 before a .45. The "deal" with that concept is that its faulty...both can kill you or your child. So, I think we agree: get and kept what you want! Know and take all responsibility for the risk. Be safe.

I assume you must not be a shooter, because you've acidentally come up with a pretty good analogy...

Yes, a .22 can kill someone, but it's both less likely to be fatal in an accident and easier to handle well for someone just starting out (recail is far less). Both make it less intimidating and therefore easier to concentrate on learning the fundimentals of safety and proper shooting before moving up to something more difficult.

I think the same goes for hots. The first time you handle an elapid will likely be a whole different experience from a viper, but it will be made somewhat easier by the fact that the fundamentals are already automatic for you.

I recently retired from a major L.E. Agency after 21 years; lethal force and managing risk was a big part of that experience. I'm still not sold on "starter hots". If one is ready to keep a copperhead safely, then why is the same individual not ready to safely keep a gabby? I would grant there may be somes species that pose exceptional risk due to behavioral chacteristics (mambas,for example), but generally safe practices are universal.
BTW: I'm not claiming any expertise here...this is only my thinking that underlies my present practice with things hot; weapons and herps.

>>If one is ready to keep a copperhead safely, then why is the same individual not ready to safely keep a gabby?

In a way you are right in this specific comparison. A gabby (at least until it gets pretty big) may actually be easier to handle than a copperhead and the same precautions apply. BUT, if your beginner mistakes result in a bite, the copperhead will almost certainly NOT kill you. The last couple gaboon bites I read about were all fatal inspite of fairly prompt care. And you WILL make mistakes when you start. If your general practices are good, those mistakes will not result in bites, but it's a possibility, and it's more likely when you first start.

Also, the OP mentioned that what he really wanted was a suphan cobra, and there's a world of difference between a copperhead (or a gaboon) and an agile cobra that can literally leap off the hook towards you and just might be inclined to come charging across the room at you.

>I would grant there may be somes species that pose exceptional risk due to behavioral chacteristics (mambas,for example), but generally safe practices are universal.

They not only pose extra risks, they require very different tehniques and certain precautions that are not required or even useful for vipers. In my opinion, you SHOULD not clutter your mind with trying to learn these techniques until you've gained soe confidence and some dexterity with a hook through practicing with less agile species.

Your point on elapids is not disputed by me. I know virtually nothing about keeping them, which is OK 'cause I have no desire to do so. But it poses a question: what kind of venomous snake would present an appropriate "starter" subject for a neo who ultimtely wants to keep a major-league cobra?

Bill,

I am in Australia, I have not kept Cobras but I maintain a reasonable collection of elapids.

Generally if someone in the states wants to keep agile Naja. Alot start with American Copperheads Agkistrodon...then to Shield Nose Cobras Aspidelaps and then to one of the more common Naja....kaouthia etc

Personally, I would suggest people try out Boiga before the Copperheads. A relatively agile large colubrid is better than nothing to start on elapids.

In Australia, the best "starters" are Red Bellies Pseudechis porphyriacus

Thanks Scott. Probably much more on point for LWA who's questions started this thread. I'd love to start with a modest collection of Boiga...and leave it there. Good examples of the genus are rare comodities here and sell out quickly...
Good luck and stay safe.
Bill

I think a mangrove would be good practice for a cobra but not for a crotalid. They dont behave the same at all. A mangrove rides a hook like an ice cube (at least mine does) while my rattlesnake are content to just hang there.
My training consisted of about an hour of handling my first rattlesnake before i took it home. She is a very calm rattlesnake and i felt very comfortable with her. Had she been spastic i probobly would have left here and come back for more practice.
I still have that snake, she is one of my favorites and will likely never leave and i have also never had a close call with her or any other hot that i keep. Be carefull have more than one hook and keep it close. When i move my rattlers for cleaning or whatever i stage 2 other hooks in arms reach of where i am working.
Good luck on your decision.

Hello,
I just wanted to take a minute to say thanks to all who responded to my posting. I got alot of good responses. I feel that the Mangrove is best to start with. As far as the post with getting what you want. That is just not an option for me as I am just entering into the unknown of venomous. Owning a Suphan cobra right now would be a quite possible if not certain death sentance to me and the animal not to mention my family and much attention from the media that our hobby does not need. I do agree with having nothing like a mentor. But that is just not possible for me right now. The ones I do know that keep Venomous do not want to risk a accident from a mistake from an entry level apprentace. For fear of reprocussions from the legal stand point, media stand point and what ever personal reasons of liability. Which is fine and understandable. So now I must learn for myself. Having said that I guess the best tool of all is knowledge and common sense. I will look around in the rear fanged for more info on the mangrove. I did find some from the snake museum. When I eventually take the plunge hopefully I will find a nice specimen and one that is cbb and not imported and w/c. I understand that they make poor captives and often die. So thatnks again to eveyone. Hope you all had a great New Year and to talk with some of you in the forums.

If your intersted in mangroves head over here...Got some good people with good experience with them.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Boiga/

Actually, when I read the first post, I tended to favor the Mangrove as well. A nice arboreal setup with an 8' Mangrove is impressive. Years ago, the Baltimore Zoo had a pair a bit larger than that, and they were amazing. I think they can also be safely handled with gloves, and the teeth being where they are, would not be able to penetrate under normal conditions. They can be a bit jumpy, but not bad as adults.

Been a long time since I had any hot stuff.....
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I remember someone posting a similar question that somehow ends up w/ questioning venomoids. If you want to find out information about venomoids, ask in the venomoid sub-forum. Hopefully you will get a simple answer that could perhaps avoid a lot of the drama. Otherwise, use Google to search for stuff. Research, research, research! Do not buy a venomoid w/o reading and learning about the snake you are interested in keeping and learning more about this controversial topic.

good luck