Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.randallburkey.com/fullsize.asp?page=1&code=REPTILE&location=results&process=addinsearch&item=1602R

please check out that link and tell me if this incubator will work for veiled eggs. even though i am very content with my chams, my b/f has been bugging me to try and raise a clutch. i told him we need all of our research first and talk with the experts so please let me know what you think, or if you can make suggestions on different store-bought brands or home-made types let me know. thanks.

rachel
African Clawed Frogs

-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

You don't need an incubator for Veiled eggs. Just do what I did (and many others). I put mine in damp vermiculite - separated about an inch apart. Popped a few air holes in the lid, stuck the tubs in the top drawer of my dresser, and checked moisture about every 3 weeks. I did add a bit of water over the 8 mos. it took but as of today I have 34 out of 40 hatched and feeding, one 1/2 out of the egg, and 5 more yet to pip.

Temps averaged 75F. High temp was about 78F w/a low of 72F.

Bill

what is a good humidity for veiled eggs?

Bill,

thanks for the tip! That is what I have been mostly finding out as well. But I am wondering how you keep the temp up as high as 75F? The temp inside my house is only about 70F, sometimes 68F on a cold day. Can I use a heating pad on low? or a very low wattage light?

Rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

In the area where I incubate the eggs in my house, its not warm enough either IMHO to hatch the veiled eggs properly. I have used a people's heating pad for over 10 years now to hatch veiled eggs (and many other kinds of reptile eggs). The pad is the type with three heat settings and is the oblong shape as well. I built a frame of 1x2's to fit over it and added screen to the 1x2 frame to support the tupperware-like containers that I use to incubate the eggs in. This setup allows me to put 4 containers of eggs on the screen at the same time.

The containers are approximately 15" x12" x4"deep. I fill these container about half full of moistened vermiculite, punch/drill three or 4 very small holes in the lid. The vermiculite is moist enough that no water can be squeezed out of it when I pick up a fist full and squeeze it. The containers are only filled half full to leave room for the babies to move around on the surface of the vermiculite when they hatch until they can be removed from the container.

After I lay the eggs in rows in small dents on the surface of the vermiculite I put the lid back on the container. I place the container on the screen where I have premeasured the temperature to make sure that the screen/frame is the right distance from the heating pad to keep the eggs at about 78F. This usually means that I have the heating pad set on low.

I have had 100% hatch rate of viable eggs doing it this way, and about 95% of the hatchlings are still alive after a month...so I have never changed this method of hatching eggs. I have also hatched panther chameleon, leopard gecko, laemanctus, bibrons gecko, box turtle eggs, etc., etc. using this method (with the temperatures altered/varied to suit the eggs being hatched).

I have said that the temperature that I incubate the veiled eggs at is approx. 78F because this system leaves the eggs somewhat exposed to variations in the room's temperature (its hotter in the room during the day and cooler at night which can cause the temperature in my setup to vary by a couple of degrees).

There are many methods/incubators that will work to hatch the eggs...but I have never changed this method (as I said above).

A couple of other things I'd like to mention...
If I have to add any water to the container during the incubation, I never allow it to fall on the eggs. I don't know if it would be a problem or not...I just don't do it. Its not very often that I have to add water during the incubation and the main reason for me having to is if I check the eggs too often.

Using the method I described, you will/should see condensation on the lid and possibly on the sides of the container. I have never had any problem with this with veiled eggs.

Good luck with the breeding and incubation! It still gives me a thrill to see the babies hatching after years of breeding reptiles!

I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the temp. It varied quite a bit ..never cooler than 70F but never warmer than 78F. Its better to err on the cool side than the warm side. Warmer temps (low 80s) have been successfully used but can lead to weaker hatchlings due to an accelerated incubation. Cooler takes longer. See my new post, 40 eggs, 38 out w/the last two pipped. All are chowing like crazy. Get a good digital themometer at RadioShack and a heat pad like the other poster described. Play with it with a "dummy tub" that has no eggs in it until your comfortable w/the desired temps.

Bill

i have been doing some reading on incubating veiled eggs. and so far it seems that most people use hand-made "incubators" that are really just plastic shoe boxes in a dark closet. Do I need any heat source for the eggs? Or can I just arrange them in vermiculite in plastic shoeboxes, stack them in a styrofoam box, and "forget" about them for approx. 9 months. (with the exception on checking on humidity). I just think my house is too cool to go that way. At the warmest its MAYBE 72 F in the day and 68 F at night.

Also, for the member who suggested using a people's heating pad set on low, how do you keep the heat on constantly at least all day? all of the heating pads i have seen will automatically shut off once they have been on for a certin amount of time. Or are there ones out there that will stay set on low for about 8 hours and not shut off? Can you remember the exact brad that you use?

and another question, could i use an undertank heater designed for reptile tanks? i was thinking a small one designed for 5-10 gallon aquariums at the bottom of the styrofoam box with the egg containers sitting 3-4 inches above it on screen. or should i put it on the outside on the underneath of the styrofoam box?

i got myself two digital thermometers made by Coralife and ESU. They use a little knob on a long wire to measure the temp. They seem pretty easy to use since all I will need to do is string them down in the box.

Sorry to ramble on....but the issue of how to heat these eggs is eating at me. and how to not cook them either! so far it seems that i'd like to incubate them at 75 F during the day, and then no heat at night so they can have a temperature varient just like in nature.

i'd still love any advice! thanks!

rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

Using a plastic shoe box in a dark closet is fine if the proper temperature can be maintained that will allow the eggs to hatch properly....but as I said in my post, my closets aren't warm enough for veiled eggs.

I always check the eggs every few days just to make sure that they aren't drying out and that they look okay. Set up the way I described in the previous post, they rarely need water added...and there is moisture on the lid of the "shoebox" and usually on the sides of it too...but not too much. You said, "I just think my house is too cool to go that way. At the warmest its MAYBE 72 F in the day and 68 F at night"...I have never incubated veiled eggs at temperatures that low, but there might be people who have. The way that I do it works for me...so I've never changed it.

You said..."for the member who suggested using a people's heating pad set on low, how do you keep the heat on constantly at least all day? all of the heating pads i have seen will automatically shut off once they have been on for a certin amount of time." I'm sure that mine don't shut off since every time I check, the temperature is still okay. I lay a thermometer on the screen so that I don't have to open the eggs to check the temperature. The heating pads may turn off when they reach the "low" temperature, but they must be coming back on or the thermometer would be showing the same temperature as the room. You said..."Or are there ones out there that will stay set on low for about 8 hours and not shut off?" I don't know if there are different ones out there or not. I have several, and unfortunately I can't remember the brand of any of them. I'll try to remember to look later and see if its on the pad or the heat control.

You said..."and another question, could i use an undertank heater designed for reptile tanks? i was thinking a small one designed for 5-10 gallon aquariums at the bottom of the styrofoam box with the egg containers sitting 3-4 inches above it on screen. or should i put it on the outside on the underneath of the styrofoam box?" I've never used one of those heaters for my reptiles or for incubating eggs. I don't trust them...but that doesn't mean that they aren't okay to use. You'll have to look to others for opinions on that!

Sorry...I don't know anything about the Coralife or ESU thermometers you are talking about either.

You said..."Sorry to ramble on....but the issue of how to heat these eggs is eating at me. and how to not cook them either! so far it seems that i'd like to incubate them at 75 F during the day, and then no heat at night so they can have a temperature varient just like in nature"...people incubate the eggs many different ways with success...I just keep the same method since it works!

Hope you get it all figured out and that you have success hatching them!

rachel

thanks for the great advice! my b/f and I have decided to go ahead with the breeding. as soon as we introduced our first female to the male they bred instantly! and then three more times within a half an hour! I even was able to capture this on digital video which i hope to have uploaded shortly. it was very neat! we seperated them for the night, and then reintroduced the female the next morning, but she turned very dark with bright blue and orange markings and did not tolerate being bred again and the male left her alone. So back into her enclosure she went and she has returned to normal, but slightly darker, coloration. Does this mean that the breeding was successful? We introduced the second female as well, and they bred instantly just like the first! After a couple hours of mating she turned black with vibrant blues, greens and oranges and the male left her alone so then back into her cage she went. She has resumed her normal coloration as well, with a bit more blue though. I am assuming that her mating was sucessful as well?

anyways, i'm going to be monitoring them very closly. I have a scale that weighs in grams and I am going keep record of the weight up until they both lay. since they are "pregnant" should I feed them more food to compensate for the energy going into egg production? Will an increase in food produce more eggs before mating takes place or after? I dont want them to have HUGE clutches if I offer more food.

i am setting up two tester incubators tomorrow. one with a people's heating pad, and one with a reptile undertank heater for a 5-10 gallon tank. These are at the bottom inside a thick styrofoam shipping box (approx. 2'X 2'). 3-4 inches above the heat pads is have fixed mesh for the plastic containers of eggs to sit on. I plan on using plastic shoe boxes filled with vermiculite. I am using a Coralife digital thermometer to monitor the temp without opening the lid. I have cut out a section of the lid and fixed a piece of plexi-glass so i can view the eggs without disturbing them. How does this sound? I will only use one of the two once I monitor the temperature control to make sure the undertank heater does not get too hot (nothing above 78F). I also plan on using a timer to turn the heat off at night and on in the morning, for a more natural temperature varient just like in nature.

i am sure i will be posting back very frequently with many updates and a million more questions thanks for all the great tips too!

rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

I looked at the heating pads but there is no name on them. I know that at least one of them was a Sunbeam.

The coloration that your females took on after mating (dark, bright blue spots, etc.) is non-receptive/gravid coloration, so they should be gravid. Once they present these colors in the male's presence, I don't try to mate them again because they could fight.

You asked "since they are "pregnant" should I feed them more food to compensate for the energy going into egg production?"...yes, you can feed them more when they are already mated. You said "Will an increase in food produce more eggs before mating takes place or after?" If the female is overfed during the time before she is pregnant/mated (excluding the week after she lays eggs when she needs extra food to recover from the egg production process) in my experience, it increases the clutch size.

One question about your setup...are you putting a lid on the styrofoam box? I've never used a styrofoam box...just the heating pad with the wood/screen frame overtop of it and a piece of wood around the setup to keep the light off the eggs. I'm glad to hear that you are leaving some space between the heat source and the containers that the eggs will be in. You said..."I have cut out a section of the lid and fixed a piece of plexi-glass so i can view the eggs without disturbing them"...good idea!

Yoou said..."I will only use one of the two once I monitor the temperature control to make sure the undertank heater does not get too hot (nothing above 78F)"...you will need more than one "shoebox" sized container for the eggs from two female likely.

You said...."I also plan on using a timer to turn the heat off at night and on in the morning, for a more natural temperature varient just like in nature"...I still can't offer you any advice about changing the temperatures overnight. My temperatures varied a couple of degrees during the night, but that's all. Not saying it won't work...just that I have no experience with it.

You said..."i am sure i will be posting back very frequently with many updates and a million more questions thanks for all the great tips too!"...you're welcome...and ask/post away!

Egg laying will be the next concern!

Good luck! I hope you get through it all easily!

thanks for all the great feedback! i am monitoring my females closly and i havent changed their feeding. i have marked 20 days ahead on my calender to get the egg laying site ready. and marked though 30 days as potential times when they could lay.

i do plan on using a lid for my styrofoam box. also, i have decided to use an undertank heater for 1-5 gallon aquariums inside the box. it keeps the temp a constant 73 F when turned on. is it ok to incubate them at this temp, even though the night?

for the egg laying site i have a bucket filled with coconut fiber (bed-a-beast) and vermiculite mixed. i plan on putting a live pothos plant on top, i have found that the females like to dig under and arond the root ball. (my first female used to lay her eggs like this, although she was never bred).

just crossing fingers that everything goes well!

what are some warning signs that something could go wrong? can females with fertile eggs become egg bound even if the bucket is available? what are the possible risks regarding the egg laying process if there are any besides egg binding?

thanks again for helping me out with my tons of questions

rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

You said..."it keeps the temp a constant 73 F when turned on. is it ok to incubate them at this temp, even though the night?"...I can't say from experience that 73F is the right temperature because I always incubate them at about 78F...but I've heard of others using that temperature. My temperatures are only a couple of degrees cooler through the night due to the room being a little cooler during the night...but I know that constant temperature has worked for many people.

Your egg laying site should be fine...assuming that the area will still have a good temperature and light. I have always used washed play sand for the egglaying medium and sometimes there is a plant there for them and sometimes there isn't. The sand I use is a specific brand and type (from King, the bag with the red, yellow and blue sand box toys on the bag) because I know it goes through their digestive system without causing blockages. I haven't heard of the coconut fiber or the vermiculite causing blockages either though.

You said your fingers are crossed...my fingers are crossed too!

You asked..."what are some warning signs that something could go wrong?"...when female chameleons are getting ready to lay eggs, IMHO you should NOT let them see you when they are digging the hole. I think it makes them feel that the place they have chosen to lay the eggs isn't safe and if they abandon the hole enough times, I feel that it can lead to eggbinding. The female will likely dig more than one hole or dig the same hole for more than one time before she settles down to lay the eggs. If she stops digging and doesn't go back to it for "days" then it can mean that she is having trouble laying her eggs. If she digs a hole and fills it in but hasn't laid the eggs, its not a good sign. If she sits on the floor of the cage and doesn't move around much then she could be having trouble laying her eggs. Many (not all) females will stop eating a few days before they lay the eggs...this is normal...but they will still drink. In many cases their water intake will increase in the few days before they lay the eggs.

Now, you asked "can females with fertile eggs become egg bound even if the bucket is available?"...it has for many years been said that if the female wasn't bred when she first became sexually mature she would die eggbound...this is NOT true. From what I have heard, read or learned from my own experience, ggbinding can be caused by poor husbandry practices (imbalances in the vitamin/mineral levels, improper temperatures, etc.)or lack of a proper/acceptable site for the female to lay her eggs in, or physical problems with the chameleon (internal deformities, eggs that are fused together or mishapen, etc.) or from eggs that are too large for the female to lay. (I probably missed a couple of reasons too.)

You asked..."what are the possible risks regarding the egg laying process if there are any besides egg binding?"...eggbinding is the main risk. I have heard of the odd female having an egg either formed improperly (not shelled) or breaking inside her which could cause infection, but its VERY rare from what I've heard.

If your female has been looked after well, then its very likely that all will go very normally...and in a few days you will have the next worry to contend with...hatching the eggs!

One more thing, I always let the female finish covering the eggs and return to the branches before I dig her eggs up. Some females get upset if you don't.

Try not to bite all your fingernails off or pull all your hair out while you are waiting!

thanks so much (again) for all the great help and advice i'm sure i'll be bugging you in the next couple of weeks once it is their time to lay.

i think i may get the next size up undertank heater, it will probably raise the temperature closer to the 78 range that you have hatched yours out at. maybe 73 is on the low end...i guess i'd feel safer with the temp at least 75.

right now i'm just weighing them and watching them. You said that once the time gets close for them to lay, they will stop eating. once i notice this happening, about how much time (as in a day or two? or more?) do i have before an approximate egg laying date ?

i feel like such a nervous first time mom! LOL

rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

Oops! I meant to move this thread up after I answered this post but my answer is moved up....so look above for your answer!

i have moved the incubator upstairs where the air temperature is a bit warmer then downstairs. now the incubator has an internal temp of 77.5 F! I think this set-up is going to work.

now i'm thinking...mold seems to be a big issue with eggs...any ways to try and avoid it?

rachel
-----
4.3 African Clawed Frog
3.3 Calfornia Newt
0.1 Leucistic Texas Ratsnake
1.2 Veiled Chameleon
0.1 Albino Cranwells Horned Frog
0.1 Paddle Tail Newt
0.1 Green Iguana
0.5.0 Indonesian Floating Frog
0.1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko

I've never found mold to be a problem on fertile eggs unless they were taken from the female after she died (thus not passing through the "birth canal"...but then I've never had mold on a fertile egg. I know others have reported that they have so I hope some of them will answer this question for you.