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in the latest Iguana pub. Who is this woman and what are her credentials. Compairing reptiles to humans???? I think she may be talking from the heart rather than from fact. I would have figured a publication like Iguana would maybe shy away from commentaries like this. Alot of the IRCF's support comes from people who keep reptiles. I am really surprised they printed it. Hell probably 99% of the people leading the way in reptile conservation kept or currently keep reptiles. She only goes by what she sees. There are many times more people who keep animals responsibly than she will ever know of. At least the IRCF did put the disclaimer in that they may or may not agree with her views. I was a little disappointed to see that. Any thoughts from anyone else? Yes I know there are a lot of abused and mistreated reptiles in this world but I don't think that reptile keeping should be banned completely because of this. Thanks for looking. Tom

I was a little disapointed to see that article not the disclaimer in my post. Sorry.

I was going to bash you about it :O) I have not read it, but I really hate when people make those comments. Hell, I think to make it simples, everyone that purchases a herp should pass some sort of test first. Something like..

1) How do you spell iguana?
2) Are collard greens and green collareds the same thing?

Seriously though. I hate being lumped into a group of people that mistreats animals and knows nothing about husbandry and how to meet their basic needs.

je

not good enough. She states they are wild and need to stay out of captivity. She even says we should not keep captive born.
She thinks no reptiles in captivity period!

she is the head of colorado humane society or something like that... nuff said.

I wonder what she does with neglected animals...care for them, or leave them for the vulures in the wild?

John

I do not want to bash the women. I don't even know her. I was looking back at some of the past issues and it seems that she has been envolved in the conservation work in the Caribbean. Plus I am not sure about all those Humane Societies. I believe the local ones are a seperate entitiy from the Humane Society of the United States which ranks right up there with PETA in the radical department. Obviously she has no idea of the physiology of reptiles comparing them to humans. Tom

"Obviously she has no idea of the physiology of reptiles comparing them to humans. Tom"

You need to read the article. She was comparing space needs, and only using humans as an example, a metaphor, not comparing their respective psysiologies.

Maybe someone can c p the article here? There seems to be confusion, and I only read the paper version of it.

"I wonder what she does with neglected animals...care for them, or leave them for the vulures in the wild? "

Are we taking shots on strangers now? I hang out primarily in the gecko forums, but there, this kind of comment wouldn't be tolerated. Her email address is in the article, why don't you ask her?

I'm glad it was tolerated here. It was not a direct bash, more a sarcastic comment. I'm glad I didn't post it in the gecko forum, whew.

J

I'm pretty sure no one wants to hurt your feelings but we are a little larger than geckos here in the CYCLURA forum..lol

"I'm pretty sure no one wants to hurt your feelings but we are a little larger than geckos here in the CYCLURA forum..lol"

Right, we were talking mostly about iguanas and reptiles in general. I just happen to have a gecko, which is why I read that forum, and happened to read that article, which is why I am posting here. I am not sure what you're trying to say here, sorry.

"she is the head of colorado humane society or something like that... nuff said."

...I don't get it. Why is this bad?

"not good enough. She states they are wild and need to stay out of captivity. She even says we should not keep captive born.
She thinks no reptiles in captivity period!"

She asks and shares her own empirical evidence, she does not state. And she asks from an informed position, someone that sees more captive animals than lots of pet owners have ever seen. Granted, her hypothesis is that they should not, but disagree with her from an informed standpoint, not someone who has taken offense because they are good pet owners and are upset because they feel like their own efforts to provide for the comforts of their animal are going unacknowledged.

"I have not read it, but I really hate when people make those comments. ...Seriously though. I hate being lumped into a group of people that mistreats animals and knows nothing about husbandry and how to meet their basic needs."

The worst thing you could ever do is to say 'I have an opinion on this article, even though I have not read it.' You really need to read it. She was making 2 points that should not be confused with each other: there are a ton of bad pet owners, and in addition, that even good pet owners may not be physically able to need an animal's needs. One of the reasons she does this is because there is little to no data on these issues. It's not like she's flying in the face of facts we know, the point is, we DON'T know, but alot of empirical data points to, well, maybe we CAN'T provide well enough for them to live out a natural life-span, and we should. I know everyone on here loves their animal, but the article was not meant as a polemic on those that dared to keep a reptile, but as a call to answer these questions that we need to ask, and, if answered to our mutual non-benefit, to rethink our keeping of reptiles in captivity.

Scan your paper copy and send to me or or post it here with permission. I know there are mulitle horrible pet owners out there just by looking at the number of stray cats around every corner of our neighborhoods.

I'm sure her intentions are good. I feel like a lot of people hide behind humane societys as a way to enjoy their passion for caring for animals while at the same time telling others that they should not. Just my opionion, and I am not bashing anyone specific. I've been to a few expos with humane booths set up and seen the representatives walking around with 6' iguanas on their backs and stroking their dewlaps. That makes no sense to me if they are also telling me my desire to have the same animals should be illegal. I'm sure many representatives are there to bring about awareness, but see it as a losing battle. I'd rather see the prices of these animals all driven up and limits put on the number of animals that could be legally sold in the pet trade per week. I'm also the first to admit, I have no desire to contace my local state representative with my thoughts on this. Am I lazy...yes. If it was illegal would I still do it...not saying.

John

Hi Tom,
I read it too. It was a load of ****. I was a little surprised and I kinda expected a rebuttal as I kept turning pages. Maybe you should write one I have no idea who she is either. I have no problem with another point of view though, it gets people thinking and reacting, like we are, and maybe thats good. I will talk to John and see if I can find out the who's and why's. It was a pretty strong issue on the whole I thought

jf

"Hi Tom,
I read it too. It was a load of ****. I was a little surprised and I kinda expected a rebuttal as I kept turning pages."

A rebuttal would appear in subsequent issues, not the same one. Why don't you write an intelligent rebuttal for her, instead of swearing?

"Maybe you should write one I have no idea who she is either. I have no problem with another point of view though, it gets people thinking and reacting, like we are, and maybe thats good. I will talk to John and see if I can find out the who's and why's. It was a pretty strong issue on the whole I thought"

That was the whole point, to get people thinking, especially those already concerned with reptile care. She wrote it for Iguana, not the PETA newsletter, after all. I did a google search on her, there's plenty of info.

Greetings All -

Regarding the commentary appearing in Volume 12 Number 4, December 2005:

Commentaries are designed to trigger discussions and, in that sense, this one has been successful.

Anyone who would like to submit an alternative opinion should feel free to do so.

Sincerely,

John Binns, IRCF

"in the latest Iguana pub. Who is this woman and what are her credentials."

Her credentials are stated. She is the direcrot of CORHS.

"Compairing reptiles to humans???? I think she may be talking from the heart rather than from fact."

There was one comparison that I recall, and it was about space needs. I am pretty sure the math was right, how an animal's natural territory was a very small percentage of what they get being kept as a pet, and likening it to a human who also had a vastly diminished space. Is this not true for all animals? You wouldn't keep a greyhound unless it had the opportunity to run, you wouldn't keep a horse on a quarter of an acre, how is this bad? And since when is speaking from (an intelligent, well-informed) heart wrong? Is it wrong to question (from the heart, and not just from the mind) the vast descrepancy between between an animal's natural habitat and that which they do, or do not, enjoy as a kept pet?

"I would have figured a publication like Iguana would maybe shy away from commentaries like this."

Why? Many people who keep pets have all the best intentions, but part of that is learning how the animal behaves in the wild, and what it'sa needs are there, especially since we are not talking about animals bred for human companionship over thousands of years, but a specie that is only a few generations away from it's wild origins. I get that this is a mindset that is being challenged, and that the majority of pet owners only have their pet's best interests in mind, but is this question wrong? There's a reason we keep dogs and not wolves, after all. I have a biology major, and from that I know that the best intentions do not always translate into the best care, no matter how hard you try. I'm sorry if this article came across as an attack on pet owners, but what I took from it was a more awareness-raising article on the wisdom of keeping what is genetically and phenotypically a wild animal in captivity; it made me think. Don't we have the responsibility as pet owners to ask these questions, and not take them as slights on our intentions?

"Alot of the IRCF's support comes from people who keep reptiles. I am really surprised they printed it. Hell probably 99% of the people leading the way in reptile conservation kept or currently keep reptiles."

I don't think supporting reptile conservation need go hand in hand with keeping reptiles as pets. There is no rule that says you have to do one to do the other. A reptile owning person obviously loves reptiles, but can't that love be translated into something other than keeping them? This is the point I think the author was making. She also made a very good point about all the reptiles being kept as 'accessories', and, if you've never met a frat guy thinking a bearded dragon in a 10 gallon was sufficient because it looked cool, or the iguana owner displaying his pet in a tank that didn't even allow the animal to turn around because it still looked good, then you're lucky. I've met plenty of these people. For every one of you care-driven owners, there are many more that aren't. But the question is, do even the best pet owners meet even the basic needs of the animal? Why do more animals in the best captivity from cancers and immune problems die than in the wild?

"She only goes by what she sees."

Sounds like raw data to me, if she is keeping good records that can be verified. As a scientist, this is the most important part, and anyone who ignores good data does do out of fear or bias, which we should not cater to as kind-hearted adults.

"There are many times more people who keep animals responsibly than she will ever know of."

She didn't say that this is not true, her question is, does even the best care meet the animal's needs? It's a good question, I think.

"Yes I know there are a lot of abused and mistreated reptiles in this world but I don't think that reptile keeping should be banned completely because of this."

I don't get that she was suggesting banning the keeping of reptiles, after all, who wants to live in a world with that much regulation? I don't know what her personal opinions on this are, but it did not come across as her preferred solution. Also, she was not suggesting that we not keep reptiles because of bad owners, as good education would solve that problem, and there are bad pet owners no matter what they own, but that even good pet owners may not be keeping animals how they should live. Just because they are small enough to be kept in the average sized home and are gorgeous, does not mean that they should be thought of any differently than animals which we would not keep. You could keep a salmon in a tank, but you can't give it it's natural range. Your iguana looks healthy and large, does it live 20-30 years? Do you even know? I'd like to hear from the people that do have these longer lived animals on this issue.

Just turn in your reptiles to the authorities. You don't need them.
Or there's a mexican boot maker down the road that would probably love to have those skins.

Personally I have not read the said article but have heard the anti herp rhetoric for the past 23 years I have kept herps (they will never quit). I guess I will be one of those evil humans that doesn't give my animals there quote-unquote natural range. PS. I kept my male green Iggy in a 8Lx4Wx8T enclosure his entire life and guess what he lived to 18 years and a few months. He was just over 10 inches when I got him. My female I lost around 10yrs but that was due to surgery.