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Uro or Frilled housed with Beardies?

stevkar Jan 04, 2006 09:30 AM

I have an adult male-female pair of Beardies (Fred & Ethel) in a large vivarium set-up (5 ft long x 3ft wide x 3 ft ht). It is a very nice set-up with sand, climbing and basking areas, UV and thermostat (with day-night drop) regulated. set-up has been stable for over a year.

I'd like to add other species with similar habitat requirements, such as Ornate Uromastyx and/or Frilled dragons.

I know that the knee jerk reaction is to say do not do it.

But does anybody have actual experience with
housing Beardies with any other species?

If success with other species, which species?

Does the usual "don't house two males together"
apply across species? If can house two species
together, can one house pairs together, since
males of different species won't be agressive
against each other?

E: steven.karen@verizon.net

-Steve

Replies (26)

PHEve Jan 04, 2006 12:35 PM

Not only would it not be good to house any other species with your beardie pair but THEY (The bearded dragons) should NOT even be housed together.

Go on the bearded dragon forum and ask this question and they will give you the same story. A male beardie will stress a female out , continually trying to mate with her.
Females go through alot while gravid, carry many eggs and it takes it's toll on them, as they can lay several large cluthes in a short amount of time. This depletes them of calcium and leaves them thin and run down. The male would just breed again and again.

Also they can be aggressive at times. It's just a bad idea and bearded dragon keepers/breeders keep the males and female seperate, only during breeding are they together briefly.

As far as uros, My beardy and uros were okay togther in the tub for soaks or short outings, running around. But to house them is dangerous, as in aggresstion, different temperature requirements (Uros much hotter temps) and carry different bacteria that can cause problems in the other species.

BAD idea, just re- think it, and talk with other people, hopfully you will come to see the problems.

Go to the dragon forum, uro forum , talk to Frilly keepers, I'm sure you will hear the same from them all.

Take care,
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

debb_luvs_uros Jan 04, 2006 04:06 PM

I have a very nice Beretta handgun which I keep cleaned and polished. I have had the gun for over a year and it is in perfect working order.

Although I pass the time target shooting and hitting clays, I have quite a few bullets left and would like to try another game of some sort – I am thinking of Russian Roulette.

I know that the knee jerk reaction is to say do not do it.

But does anybody have actual experience with playing Russian Roulette? If so, how many times were you successful?

Does the usual "don't play Russian Roulette"
apply to Berettas?

purduecg Jan 04, 2006 04:38 PM

Tired of fielding this question Debb?

Nice analogy though, I think we should keep that response around for future use.

In all fairness, I can understand why it would be a tempting thing to do, and even seem like a workable idea on the surface. However, for all of the aforementioned reasons, this is a really, really, bad idea.

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine (RIP)
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

yesimhavingfun Jan 04, 2006 07:37 PM

I do agree with Eve that it would be a very bad idea. However, it is not wrong to create environments to house different species of animals. There are a lot of things that must be met and understood before doing so but it is very possible. All of Eve’s reasons are all very valid but I just want to add a bit. When mixing species, you have to be able to meet EVERYONE’S specific needs. Uros and Beardies are from different niches; therefore, it is extremely unlikely to be able to produce a natural environment to fit both animals. I do however disagree that mixing species is unacceptable. Mixing different species is not done widely and is an experimental process. There are many people interested in creating a naturalistic habitat that house many species of reptiles and even invertebrates! If you are interested in mixing species, I would recommend you do a ton of research on the natural habitats of each animal and when you find ones that fit the same habitat conditions, you can start researching the animals for compatibility. There are a lot of good sources for info on this subject and has actually been a large portion of Philippe de Vosjoli's recent research. There is a lot to be learned about with reptiles and their compatibility with other animals. Check out zoos for ideas because there you will most likely see enclosures with mixed species in them. Don’t get me wrong, especially those who disagree, I am not telling you it is ok to mix the mentioned species nor would I try it. It won’t work, but the idea of mixing different species is possible.
Good Luck
-Nathanael

PHEve Jan 04, 2006 10:41 PM

I agree that mixing of some species from the same type climate / locales can be done and successfully, BUT where you have an enormous amount of room to do it.

Not in fish tanks like most of us have available or even cages 4 to 6 feet long or so.

WE look at enclosures that size, and think they are huge and roomy
But for lizards, that may feel territorial that are of the same species or of different species, they are just TRAPPED IN A SMALL SPACE together no matter what.

We can say "OH they get along so well" in my 6 foot cage but in reality they have .......................
NO CHOICE agian, they are TRAPPED and try to survive!

So I say YES, it can be done if well thought out, but most of us can NOT provide a habitat as large as a ZOO, where the animal can have it's own space and feel safe, and maybe not even have to EVER come in contact with the other species it has to live with.

Just my thoughts.
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

yesimhavingfun Jan 04, 2006 11:43 PM

I have mixed opinions of that; I have seen quite a few enclosures that measure less than 6 feet that house a variety of reptiles including invertebrates. Not only were the animals not "trapped" and "only trying to survive" but they successfully bred more than once in that environment and actually thrived! You are however very correct on the size issue when dealing with Uros. I personally have never seen lizards of this size in multi species enclosures but wanted to express the idea that it is not impossible. I respect your thoughts and recognize that you are right when dealing with larger specimens. Like I said before, I’m not condoning it but just wanted to throw out the thought of it being possible.
-Nat

PHEve Jan 05, 2006 12:14 AM

I was talking about larger critters, like the original poster!

Always an interesting topic, LOL
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

yesimhavingfun Jan 05, 2006 12:54 AM

I do have to say, I would love to see a natural vivarium with uros, I bet it would be an awsome thing to see!

stevkar Jan 05, 2006 01:33 AM

I truly do appreciate the kind and helpful (and hopefully experience fact-based) input by everybody else... other the one nasty analogy writer.

One problem is that lots of "facts" are actually the same heresay, rumor, seeming logic (but not actual experience) and folklore handed-down and passed around, and may not be true, based on experience. Sadly the case in my own field of medicine more than one might think. Very much the case in herp-dom.

Hence my request for info based on actual experience, not hand-me-down heresay, or seeming logic, or well meaning fear.

This however is just vacuous, factless, stupid, & uncalled for nasty sarcasm. By the way, argument by analogy is always meaningless, and a a sure sign that the author may know less than they think.

el_toro Jan 05, 2006 04:59 AM

>>...and a a sure sign that the author may know less than they think.

She may be very blunt, or even harsh (in our PC world), but one thing Debb is NOT, is uninformed. I respect her opinion above 99% of folk with things to say about uros - if Debb believes it, it's due some serious consideration, as her opinions are based on mind-boggling amounts of research and experience.
-----
Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx geyri (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Uromastyx dispar maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Uromastyx ornata (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Anolis carolinensis (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo, and Pickles 1,2,3,&4)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

purduecg Jan 05, 2006 09:58 AM

Beat me to it! I was just going to say the same thing about Debb.
-----
1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine (RIP)
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

debb_luvs_uros Jan 05, 2006 10:37 AM

Thank you for the kind words Torey and Elizabeth.

I can see not everyone appreciated my attempt at humor nor did everyone realize the intended use of the analogy.

My comments were to hopefully make people think a little and were intended to provoke thought towards the ‘why and should’ rather than the ‘if and could’.

I personally find analogies great for promoting self evaluation in a situation as well as thought and reasoning- I guess I should keep in mind that not everyone is a thinker.

Could species that nature never intended to coexist and that have different requirements in temperature (up to 20-degree variance) and diet be kept successfully in captivity? I think that might depend on your definition of ‘successfully’. I am sure that your definition probably differs from mine Steve.

I am not here to argue that all of these experimental mixtures will result in catastrophe, I am sure that there have been plenty of these experiments where the animals were forced to adapt and live together. Some might view that as thriving or success but I view it as nature and preservation. We all adapt to conditions- even adverse ones.

My position is that we need to evaluate our responsibility and steps in captive care and our own personal biased interpretations of ‘success’ in living conditions for these animals. I believe we all need to ask ourselves the ‘why and should’ behind each step we take with animals that are totally dependent on our care. If there are multiple possible drawbacks and the answer to the 'why' is solely that it is for our convenience and/or selfish desire of wanting an interesting captive habitat to entertain us, then let me suggest that we are selfish enough in keeping these animals captive in the first place and thus should do all we can to provide the most natural setting while limiting as much stress as we from that environment.

My interpretation of natural setting would include specific temperatures, humidity, and diet (among other things) for the individual animal not a wider perimeter for assorted non-geographically related species to adapt to living in just because those factors might be 'close'. I would think that if the animal had a choice it would prefer optimal over usable or adequate and optimal is tailored to the animal not to the owner. (Although I am sure the reptiles definition of optimal would be much different than ours)

Limiting stress (not all stress is readily noticeable with obvious outward signs) is a key part of success and should naturally include avoidance of other species which these animals do not cohabitate with in nature and which have different requirements and temperaments. For the record, I own quite a few uromastyx and had had twelve years experience with keeping bearded dragons so I think I am qualified to give feedback on the requirements of both as well as the temperament and sociability of these two specific species. While my point in all of this has not been specifically tailored to any two species but more towards the responsibility and decision making process in captive care, I do consider myself qualified to say that there are significant enough differences (yes, even factual) between these two animals that I see numerous potential drawbacks in placing them together with no obvious beneficial reason (for the reptile) for doing so. While you might consider this less than ‘factual’ because I have never physically placed a bearded dragon with a uromastyx, I consider my opinion on the subject somewhat valid and factual given the direct experience in working with the two species and my innate ability to reason as well as my ongoing exposure to weighing pros and cons and right and wrong in my everyday decision making processes. I would like to think that we all have a little talent in this area. Just as I know that placing one bullet in the chamber that holds six gives me better odds than six bullets, I also know without pulling the trigger that there are reasons not to do it in the first place. I don't actually have to play a game of Russian Roulette to know that the drawbacks far out weigh the benefits and whether or not I should play the game. Could I survive- sure. Would I gain anything- about as much as the bearded dragon and uromastyx would gain by you placing them together. However, one needs to keep in mind that the extent of loss in both situations could be the same as well.

No, my previous comments were not to say that mixing species cannot be accomplished to our own selfish satifisfactions, it was to suggest that everyone ask themselves the ‘whys and shoulds’ when making decisions in care. If the answers to those questions do not directly support and benefit the animal and may result in adverse conditions or are being considered with our own selfish interest being placed above the animal, then I suggest not taking that step.

frye Jan 05, 2006 11:43 AM

It is not about us as keepers but about the individual needs of the reptiles. As a keeper of both species, I would not think of putting them together as each has differing requirements.

LoraineinFla Jan 06, 2006 07:16 AM

VERY well said! The key word here is "Care." If you really care about your animal, you want what's best for him or her....NOT what's best for you.
~Loraine

Arredondo Jan 06, 2006 11:14 PM

Dang!!!! Debb, that was beautiful!!!!!

stevkar Jan 05, 2006 08:20 PM

since the initial posting was just nasty argument by analogy, there was no way to judge whether there was any experience oir knowledge; except that argument by analogy is usually a sign of not having facts and being wrong, but having strong opinions. subsequent posting somewhat more useful.

Cross-posting on bearded board has some successul reports of such co-housing of bearded and uro.

Diet difference noted (ominivore vs. more purely veggie).

Temp difference is reported to be less according to other sources.

Real question is likelihood of fighting?

For those so strongly opposed to it, the question is always, but have you actually tried it, or are objections theoretical or ideological.

jaffar311 Jan 06, 2006 02:53 PM

"since the initial posting was just nasty argument by analogy, there was no way to judge whether there was any experience oir knowledge; except that argument by analogy is usually a sign of not having facts and being wrong, but having strong opinions. subsequent posting somewhat more useful.

Cross-posting on bearded board has some successul reports of such co-housing of bearded and uro.

Diet difference noted (ominivore vs. more purely veggie).

Temp difference is reported to be less according to other sources.

Real question is likelihood of fighting?

For those so strongly opposed to it, the question is always, but have you actually tried it, or are objections theoretical or ideological." - Stevkar

Stevkar, the only problem here is you are going to take from responses what you need to back your point of view and chances are you will do it against the best advise of others.

I am not even going to get into a winded debate over this since very Experienced people on this board say it's a bad idea and very Experienced people on the bearded board say it's a bad idea. You had one person tell you they had success but that person no longer owns Uro's so I'm curious what kind of "success" they had. You are not going to find people on these boards or any other bragging about mixing species and failing at it because it is called animal abuse and they will be scrutenized for doing so.
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)(Doug Dix)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

jaffar311 Jan 06, 2006 03:01 PM

FACT

Bearded Dragons and Uros Together · Here is the official word about housing Bearded Dragons and Uros together from someone whom I would consider an expert.
It's a bad idea, so I hope if you're doing it, you will quickly make alternative arrangements. All bearded dragons are thought to carry coccidia. Susan L., a veterinarian, pointed out that coccidia are protozoans and very annoying ones, at that. "Many animals have their own kind(s) and they cause diarrhea etc, and of course they are very contagious." I guess that's a good thing since virii are so much more difficult to treat. Thanks, Susan!

On 4/26/01 at 3:03 PM Ronnie Buck wrote:

Coccidia is the biggy but you can also add that a uro's tail can easily put out an eye on a dragon. Beardies usually bite at the base of the tail when showing aggressive behavior. There are several other reasons too, like the basking temp ranges (bearides from 95 to 100°) with studies showing that 113° ambient air temps proving fatal to more than 50% of the adult test subjects in a 1 hour period, while others suffered neurological problems from over heating and had to be put down. As with most species, mixing lizards from different geographical locations is just asking for trouble!

Ronnie Buck
Australian Beardies Herpetoculture
Orlando, FL
407-532-7866
www.australianbeardies.com
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)(Doug Dix)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

jaffar311 Jan 06, 2006 03:04 PM

Community Reptile and Amphibian Tanks

By Devin Edmonds

Introduction

A terrarium that houses multiple species of amphibians and reptiles together often sounds like a great idea. A combination of different types of frogs, salamanders, lizards, turtles, or snakes in one cage adds a new ingredient to the average mono-species terrarium, and makes a fascinating display. Zoological institutions often recreate naturally occurring communities in large elaborate exhibits which engage the public. Can a private hobbyist accomplish the same thing at home? I think that generally private hobbyists struggle to accommodate multiple species in one terrarium, and that most should avoid attempting to do so, instead sticking to species-specific setups. With this article I hope to outline some of the most common problems encountered when different species are kept together in the same cage, and hopefully provide people with a better understanding of what’s involved in keeping a community reptile and/or amphibian terrarium.

Many hobbyists like to think of reptiles and amphibians in a similar way as tropical community fish. At the local fish store there are dozens of different species of fish that can be plopped into the same tank and will generally do fine together. This can be accomplished because there are many different species that require extremely similar care. Water temperature, water quality, diet, aquarium setup, and other care requirements are often alike for different species. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for reptiles and amphibians. Even those that occur together naturally often occupy different microclimates in the wild and require drastically different care in captivity. When multiple species are kept together, often at least one has their care compromised in order to accommodate the others. Our goal as hobbyists should be to provide the best possible care we can for our herps, not stretch them to their limits in order to create an attractive display tank.

Common Problems

Cage size is probably the most common mistake made when keeping a community reptile and amphibian terrarium. Space is very important in multi-species setups, more so than in setups designed specifically for one species. It’s important that all animals in the cage have room to have their own territory, hunt for food, regulate their body temperature, and otherwise behave normally without the threat of aggressive cage mates causing problems. Standard aquarium sizes are usually too small to accomplish this when multiple species are kept together, and the long, low rectangular shape most are manufactured in is not ideal for most community reptile and amphibian tanks. Next time you visit a zoo that has a tank that houses multiple species together make sure to take note of the size of the cage. Most are large cubes that that measure several feet in both length, width, and height, and a similar cage size should be applied if reptiles and amphibians are kept together at home. For most, a terrarium of this size is not practical or possible to keep in the home and therefore most private hobbyists will have difficulty keeping different species together in one cage.

It’s also important to understand that a terrarium offers far less room than wild reptiles and amphibians usually occupy. In the wild there is plenty of room for reptiles and amphibians to go about their business without others interfering. It’s rare for two different species to come near each other unless one is trying to eat the other. When multiple species are placed into a glass cube that is the size of only a small fraction of the space they would occupy in the wild there is a much great chance that something will go wrong or that they will interact with each other in a negative way. Even species that occur naturally together in the same environment generally maintain a large distance from one another, or at least more space than a terrarium can offer.

One of the most common problems encountered when keeping multiple species in one tank is that one of the species becomes food for the other. The majority of carnivorous reptiles and amphibians will attempt to eat anything that moves. The size of prey that can fit inside an amphibian’s or reptile’s mouth is often surprising. As a general rule, only keep different species together that are the same size. It’s also important to realize that even though cannibalism may be taboo in most current human cultures, it certainly is not off limits to amphibians and reptiles. It is important that all animals in the cage, even those that are the same species, are similar in size.

It’s essential to understand the environmental conditions that different species need to survive prior to keeping them. Accommodating different environments in one cage is very difficult to do and rarely works out. If the environments needed by different species don’t match up they should not be kept together. Particularly important is temperature. Most reptiles should be provided with a large range of temperatures in their environment, while most amphibians should be exposed to a smaller thermogradient. It’s often difficult to provide these different temperature requirements in one cage, which makes mixing reptiles with amphibians hard to do successfully. The preferred humidity level is also important to take into consideration. Species from arid regions should never be kept with those from tropical climates, it will not work well. In addition to temperature and humidity, the actual physical environment is important. Some species are aquatic and will need a large water area, while others are strictly terrestrial and can drown in deep water. Some species prefer a deep soil substrate that they can burrow in, while others are arboreal and need different perches and climbing spots. It can be difficult, if not impossible, to provide these different environmental conditions in one terrarium, particularly in smaller cages.

A commonly overlooked problem is the toxicity of the animals being kept. With the exception of two species of lizards, the only venomous reptiles are certain species of snakes, nearly all of which are poor candidates for a multi-species terrarium. On the other hand, there are hundreds of poisonous species of amphibians that are commonly recommended as good species to mix together. Keeping poisonous species of amphibians with other animals is very risky for obvious reasons. Some common species of amphibians that are poisonous are fire-bellied toads (Bombina species), red-banded walking frogs (Phrynomantis bifasciatus), fire-legged kassina running frogs (Kassina species), common true toads (Bufo species), Cuban tree frogs (Osteopilus septentrionalis), tomato frogs (Dyscophus species), mantella frogs (Mantella species), fire-bellied newts (Cynops orientalis), and fire salamanders (Salamandra salamandra).

Some amphibians that are close to the same size, live in similar environments, are not poisonous in captivity, and would presumably do fine if kept together sometimes do poorly because they require different types of food to eat. Diet is one of the most important parts of permanently maintaining captive reptiles and amphibians. Unfortunately, not all species eat the same food, and those that do often don’t eat the same sizes of food. Both red-eyed tree frogs (Agalychnis callidryas) and blue poison dart frogs (Dendrobates azureus) will eat crickets, but the former of the two will only recognize larger crickets as food, while the dart frogs are not capable of eating large feeder insects and need to be fed hatchling crickets. Although feeding both sizes of crickets is one possible solution, this usually ends poorly because large crickets that go unnoticed can actually attempt to eat and cause harm to reptiles and amphibians. In this case the adult crickets could possibly harm the dart frogs. It’s also necessary to understand that not all reptiles and amphibians are equipped equally to catch food. Those that are stronger will often bully other weaker species out of food, eventually leading to the death of the weaker species.

What species can be kept together?

So the big question: What species of reptiles and/or amphibians can be kept together? Generally speaking, if you have to ask if two different species can be kept together you should not attempt mixing them because you don’t understand their care requirements enough to do so, and do not have the experience needed to identify common problems that may develop in a multi-species terrarium. Instead, it’s strongly recommended that the different species of interest be kept separately for a long period of time prior to housing them together. This will give the keeper time to recognize what their normal behavior is, as well as understand what’s involved in caring for them.

One combination that can work well is keeping different North American tree frogs together, such as green tree frogs (Hyla cinerea) and gray tree frogs (Hyla versicolor). Most species require fairly similar care and can be kept together in a large enough terrarium. Avoid keeping Cuban tree frogs (Osteopilus septentrionalis) with other frogs as they are poisonous, grow large, and love to eat other amphibians. Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as Dendrobates azureus with Phyllobates bicolor. Anoles (Anolis species) are a common lizard that is mixed in with frogs, but I would advise against this unless the terrarium is very large and a large temperature gradient can be provided safely without risking the frog’s safety. It also can be difficult to locate healthy anoles, and unhealthy animals should never be kept with others. Small day geckos (Phelsuma species) have also successfully been kept with certain species of frogs, but again the same precautions should be taken as when keeping anoles with amphibians. As general rule, avoid mixing snakes with other reptiles and amphibians because their care requirements are often different than those of other types of herps. Avoid mixing turtles and tortoises with other types of reptiles and amphibians for the same reason. Aquatic basking turtles, such as painted turtles (Chrysemys picta), red-eared sliders (Trachemys scripta), and map turtles (Graptemys species) generally do fine when kept together because their care requirements are nearly identical, with the exception of diet which is easy to adjust to meet a certain species needs. Larger reptiles are almost always best kept either alone or with others of the same species because they are too difficult to manage when kept in terrariums with other reptiles and amphibian.

None of the above combinations are foolproof or completely safe by any means. Whenever two species are kept together there is a larger risk of problems occurring than when they are kept separate, and it’s important to understand this before mixing species. Those that are listed above are just combinations that I have seen other hobbyists have success with, and are not strict rules to follow. I always urge hobbyists to keep species-specific tanks rather than community terrariums because it is safer for the captive animals and generally much easier for the caretaker.

Prior to keeping different species together it’s crucial that all animals are isolated in separate enclosures for at least one month, preferably longer. During this period of time the keeper should thoroughly observe all animals and ensure that they are healthy and eating. The isolation cages should be kept as clean as possible, and it’s advised that the keeper washes their hands and any shared equipment between cages to prevent possible pathogens from spreading between them. It’s also strongly recommended that fecal samples be collected and taken to a veterinarian who can examine them for internal parasites.

It’s advised that all species being mixed should be captive-bred rather than wild-caught. Amphibians and reptiles born in captivity are less likely to have health problems than those that are from the wild, and are less likely to contain harmful diseases or parasites that could harm other species. By only mixing captive-bred animals, the risks involved in keeping a community reptiles or amphibian terrarium will be reduced.

Keeping a multi-species terrarium takes a lot of research, time, money, and space to provide. It’s something that most hobbyists are not able to do safely, and that most should avoid. Although it’s common to see mixed community tanks in zoos and other institutions, these facilities are able to provide the care needed to maintain them. Most have a full time exotic-specialty veterinarian on staff so that when problems do occur a vet can be called in immediately. They also often have other resources that the average hobbyist does not, such as a larger budget and an entire staff of experienced employees that specialize in maintaining animals. The community amphibian and reptile tank is something that should only be attempted by veteran hobbyists who have the resources needed to maintain and keep one. Those who are new to keeping reptiles and amphibians but still want a multi-species terrarium might consider safer options, such as using one tank to maintain several species that are separated by glass dividers.
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)(Doug Dix)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

jaffar311 Jan 06, 2006 03:08 PM

SOURCES

http://www.doylesdartden.com/faq.htm#Q - Can I mix different species or morphs.

http://exoticpets.about.com/od/reptilesandamphibians/f/mixingspecies.htm

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibianArticles/article0007.shtml

http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=1722

Q. Can I Mix Species When Setting up a Terrarium?

FAQ
From Lianne McLeod,
Your Guide to Exotic Pets.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!

A.

Sometimes, when people set up a terrarium they wish to create a "mini ecosystem" and add a mix of species that will cohabitate in the terrarium. While in theory this sounds like a good idea, it is a situation fraught with difficulties and can only be achieved with a great deal of research and work. For the average keeper of reptiles and amphibians, it is not something I would recommend. Here is why:

* Different species have different requirements, even if the differences seem quite minor especially for species from similar climates. However, in the wild each species occupies a unique niche even within the same general climate, where temperature, light, humidity vary depending on the specific habitat of each species (e.g. tree vs ground dwelling, terrestrial vs. aquatic).
In an unnatural situation (the terrarium), it is hard to provide an environment that closely duplicates the natural environment needed to keep single species healthy and stress-free. Providing natural conditions for multiple species is extrememly complicated.
* Terrariums for mixed species generally need to be much larger than those for a single species, and are more difficult to maintain. Extra room is needed to provide the proper environmental conditions and furnishings for each species, as well as allowing each species their own space to hunt and interact somewhat naturally. Crowding different species together in a small tank can be a recipe for disaster.
* Carnivorous critters are usually not picky eaters, and will try to eat smaller cagemates of any species. This applies to animals (lizards, frogs, salamanders) that are largely insectivorous; most of these will not hesitate to hunt other small critters given the opportunity especially if confined in a tank with them. Also consider the stress you place on an animal, confining it in close quarters with a potential predator.
* Toxicity may be an issue with some frogs, salamanders, and newts. Many secrete mild skin toxins. These toxins may not be dangerous to humans, but they can accumulate in a tank and cause problems if absorbed through the skin of other tank inhabitants or if a cagemate tries to eat a toxic amphibian.
* Animals may become stressed by behaviors and displays that are unexpected and that they do no know how to intrpret. Between species that do not normally coexist, normal behaviors and benign displays may be misinterpreted, and this may lead to fighting or stress.
* Animals from different areas or habitats have differing immunities to parasites and infectious diseases. Therefore, one species may harbour a bug that it can carry with no ill-effects. However, if that bug (be it a parasite, virus or bacteria) is introduced to a species with no natural immunity, the result can be devastating.

I know there are people out there that have mixed tanks that seem to do just fine, but my recommendation is to stick to one species per tank. The results of mixing species of reptile and amphibian in a terrarium are unpredictable, especially for less experienced keepers. Providing the proper environment and alleviating stress are too important to the health and well-being of reptiles and amphibians to take chances with mixing species.
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)(Doug Dix)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

yesimhavingfun Jan 06, 2006 06:36 PM

Man thats everything but a kitchen sink!

Arredondo Jan 06, 2006 11:28 PM

This subject has been beaten to death for years. Keep your species separate & you'll sleep better at night. Yeeesh!!

uroman24 Jan 07, 2006 05:43 AM

thought this was a uro info portal, not a study of english narrative, lets really talk about uros....

Arredondo Jan 07, 2006 09:57 PM

"A study of English narrative."??? What's that about? I'm simply saying that this issue has been around forever & the consensus always seems the same: keep them separate. Unfortunately, inflections & "tongue-in-cheek" can't be felt in e-mails & I'm sorry if I sounded in some way you didn't want to hear. Don't get your panties in a wad. I was simply stating my views on the "Uro info portal."

uroman24 Jan 08, 2006 06:59 AM

I was absolutely agreeing with you, hey if someone has that kind of money to waste go for it and deal with the consequences.

Arredondo Jan 08, 2006 06:03 PM

Oops!!! Sorry, Uroman! I mistook your message. Glad we think alike on that issue.

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