Is head color in couperi a geographic variation? Are there any black animals with no light pigment on throat? Just Black?
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Head Color
Sighthunter
Jan 04, 2006 10:29 AM
Replies (10)
epidemic
Jan 04, 2006 04:02 PM
Hello, Bill,
I have seen a few D. couperi with almost heads that had virtually no cream or red anterior coloration, though nothing I would consider completely black.
From my experiences with wild specimens, I have found D. couperi with heads almost entirely salmon red in South Dade Co. FL, while it appeared as though the red anterior coloration became less prominent the further North I encountered them, with the few specimens I found in Georgia having very little to no red anterior coloration, though all harbored some degree of cream anterior coloration and I now know that some of the Georgia biologist have encountered specimens with a great deal of anterior red coloration. Also, in captivity, specimens with a great deal of red anterior coloration have been produced by predominantly black adults and red throat adults have produced predominantly black offspring.
I suppose a Dry fan finding a solid black D. couperi could be the equivalent of a Pit fan finding a solid black P. m lodingi.
I once believed anterior coloration could dictate locality, but I have since dismissed the idea, due in part to the findings of those conducting field studies in Southeast Georgia...
Best regards,
Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947
epidemic
Jan 04, 2006 04:07 PM
Had two different trains of thought going on at once! All of D. couperi I was refering to had entire heads, not "almost" heads, with the exception of a couple I found near a Boy Scout camp in Homestead, FL.
Guess those scouts weren't going for their herp merit badges at the time...
Best regards,
Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947
Sighthunter
Jan 04, 2006 06:31 PM
I read it the way you meant it without even noticing the mistake since I always write like that without apologies.
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MaxPeterson
Jan 04, 2006 07:37 PM
I've seen too many scouts wanting to kill snakes & spiders & anything else that moves. 
(We'll go for the sad smiley 'cause I
can't find an angry one!)
As an assistant Cub Master, I'll be trying to change that.
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"I got out of the business because it's almost impossible to do business without breaking a law some place, whether you knowingly do it or not."
Tom Crutchfield
Sighthunter
Jan 04, 2006 06:29 PM
Thanx, that is what I was after.
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PHILFRANK
Jan 04, 2006 10:51 PM
WHILE LIVING IN AN INDIGO HAUNT FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS I HAVE OBSERVED BOTH TYPES OF HEAD COLORATION WITHIN THE SAME POPULATION HERE IN my neighborhood in CENTRAL FLORIDA, as well as a mix of both yellow and red coloration on the chin and labials.
I have noticed that the yellow throated specimens rarely exceeded six feet while the red throated individuals were larger, both in length and girth.
As a youngster, I thought it was a male/female thing, only to learn otherwise once I became proficient at sexing snakes.
Now, thirty-three years later, I rarley see the red throated, larger snakes, but still observe the smaller, darker ones from time to time. I guess the smaller, less obvious ones are not descended upon as readitly by snake killers as the larger ones.
Phil
Fred Albury
Jan 05, 2006 06:05 PM
Bill,
I have,in the past,PRODUCED Couperi that were all black with no white or Red underneat their chin whatsoever. One of my adult females that I sold last year during my period of regrettable financial/health decline was solid black with no white or red on it whatsoever.
Red-faced Eastern Indigos often produce all black neonates. I have NOT bred red to red. so do not have any background on which to speak of this potential pairing. I have bred red faced to white throat, red faced to all solid black and white faced to white faced. All with widely varying results. I would be VERY curious to know the physical locale that Nazzas snazzy Red Throat Couperi actually came from, or that their parents came from.
I believe that a really NICE all black Lodgini(Black Pine Snake) is rarer than an all black Couperi. I have seen a LOT of Blk Pines and only a FEW truly all black low patterned ones. I have seen all black Indigos, but not many truly nice blk pines.
My two cents and a nickel...and not a wooden one mind you.....
Fred Albury
epidemic
Jan 09, 2006 09:46 AM
Hey, Fred,
Hope all is going well and that your recovery is speeding along for you, gave us all quite a scare there!
I have yet to see a couperi of solid black coloration, but I recently obtained a back copy of Reptile/Amphibian Hobbyist magazine, containing the article you authored regarding couperi husbandry, thoroughly enjoyed it by the way, and I would have to say the couperi you are holding in your lap appears to have been a solid black specimen, though I couldn’t make out the anterior ventral scales, so I am guessing it was. Would you happen to have a photo of that specimen you could post on the forum?
Also, I know Robert Bruce parted with a group of adult black couperi a couple of years ago, though I do not know whether they were completely black…
Best regards,
Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947
heyrman34
Jan 06, 2006 05:56 PM
hi sighthunter
this is my female, and she dont have any red colour. only white under the chin.
i trying to breed whit the colors en non (red)colors. so maybe i can answer you'r question in the future. but not at this time.
greetings nico
Sighthunter
Jan 06, 2006 11:33 PM
Thank You for the head shot.
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