Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK is it possible for a female to probe deeper after being bred?

Heres my situation: I bought a yearling female last year from a well known mid-sized breeder - not sure if I checked the sex on her after I got her - considering who I got her from I may well have taken it for granted that she was properly sexed - but last year when I put all my snakes records onto the computer I probed all of them and included scale counts - she probed 4 and 5 at the time. In October another local breeder came over to pick a couple of my normal females to use for a breeding project - we swapped a few. At that time - he probed and weighed her and she probed female for him too - he didn't take her cause she was on the smallish side.

Anyway - I put a few more grams on her and put her in with one of my males and they hooked up a few times (5). But then they stopped, to see if it was him or her that was not putting out anymore I stuck my pastel male in with her and they scuffled - like two males - I pulled the pastel out, thinking maybe she just didn't like him. A few days later we had some rain so I thought maybe it would trigger breeding so I put my other male back in with her and they hooked up. A couple of days later I pulled him out and just out of curiousity probed her - she probed really deep 8 and 9.

Now I know it can be easy to missex an animal - but for three people to missex the same animal is odd, isn't it? If it is a he, then why is he ok with one male but not the other? And why does he continue to hook up with the other male? If it's a she - why is she probing deep now and why did she react to the pastel the way she did? I believe it's probably a male but who knows? It's not a major project or anything but I don't want to keep putting a male with a male - LOL.

Any thoughts?!?!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

>>OK is it possible for a female to probe deeper after being bred?

Once I determine I have a female, I normally do not probe again - it risks injury. So, to answer your question, I don't know. Sounds unlikely though.

After three people checking her as female, I would tend to lean in that direction. Is it possible that she was injured/ruptured during one of the checks? We try to be as sensitive as possible during probing as to avoid injuring the animal, so sometimes we don't use enough pressure and sometimes we use too much.

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>>A couple of days later I pulled him out and just out of curiousity probed her - she probed really deep 8 and 9.

The deepest female I have is 7. But my males all probe at the very least 9 scales but most (if not all), are deeper than that.

Have you tried checking for sperm plugs? At a year or more of age, this snake would show plugs if a male.

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>>Now I know it can be easy to missex an animal - but for three people to missex the same animal is odd, isn't it?

Depends on how experienced each one is. Mistakes do happen though. Right now, I have a "it" that I initially marked as a male. Well, "it" has since probed to be female and so far has no sperm plugs. I had a friend check and he says "it" is a female. I could have made a mistake when "it" was hatched. Normally, I do a quick check and group males and females. Then when they get more permanent quarters, I recheck them. Anything I sell is then rechecked before it goes out just to be safe.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I had considered that she may have been damaged in a probe - but since we all probed her female (apparently shallow) - not sure how that could have happened - but not ruling it out as a possiblity tho. Also considering how he/she reacted to the male pastel I would assume that she is a he. Since I had always assumed she was a she I never tried to pop plugs and I'm also assuming since "he" has been breeding there wouldn't be plugs now anyway? Maybe I'll let him/her sit for a week and try for plugs or penes next week.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Don't you hate that.

Someone awhile back recommended probing both sides for better reliability.

Also, I find spinning the lubricated, ball-tipped probe seems to "free it up" from sticking part way in.

Alan

LOL - yeah - I do actually probe both sides as well as use a lube.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Usually you can tell just by looking at the area where the base of the hemipenes are at. If it is a decent size mature animal it would only take a day or two to produce visible sperm plugs most of the time. Sometimes females do not like certain males, or so I have heard, but I have never heard of them battling much. Are you sure you didn't just mix some animals up? Do you have any similar sized males that you might have accidently switched her with?
Sometimes males will hook up with other males to display dominance also. So it could be that your pastel is small enough that your "it" is displaying dominance, but the other male you put in there is big enough to put up a fight.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Usually if I try to pop a big male - the base of the penes will pink up real quick even if I don't get penes (I'm no good a popping larger snakes) this one doesn't - so maybe it's a girl. But no - there's no chance of switching them up - the snakes in play are an albino, a pastel and the he/she is an easily identifieable oddball normal.

Guess I'll wait and see if I get plugs - although now that I know females produce plugs too - I guess it still won't assure me 100% either way.

We'll see.

Thanks-
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Once they hit a certain size, I no longer pop them - they are probed.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

what size in grams do you stop poping?
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

After about 4-6 months of age. At that point, it becomes more difficult and IMHO, unreliable. You may think you have a female when in fact you have a male. At this point, I probe.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

With any luck, she'll answer the question by laying eggs.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I have had male and female pairs battle each other. One pair I tried to hook up fought for awhile until I put her in a bag in his cage and left her there for about 3-4 hours. Then let her out, by morning they were "hooked up".