Reptile & Amphibian Forums

IMO, a carpondro is not an attractive animal. There is, however, a way to convey that message without being insulting. There is also, IMO a way to respond to people who disagree without trying to insult and belittle them. It's hard to say which attitude came first, but this is a DISCUSSION! It should include pros AND cons. I think most hybrids are unnatural (jungle corn), and some are irresponsible (Angolan Ball). I don't, however, think hybrids pose as great a threat to this hobby as some of the attitudes I've seen here. Would anyone like to discuss?

One of the biggest pros to hybridization is one that I have NEVER seen anyone give any thought to--When your local or state government bans the ownership, importation, breeding, and sale of a particular species (for example--I live in PA and our fish and game commission are going to vote on banning all Lampropeltis triangulum and all L. getulua among other snakes as well) the law WILL not be able to be enforced on hybrids since they do not fall under either classification.

That's something I've never thought of. Are you sure that ban wouldn't be enforcable the same way some bans on pit bulls have been enforced. To my knowledge, some towns ban the ownership of them even if the dog is a mixed breed.

You have a point about the mixed breed issue.

Georgia won't allow the hybridization of wildlife. This is constructed to stop the wolf hybrids from being produced, but because of its wording, it is all encompassing. In my opinion, this is bad legislation. Too many laws ban things, instead of allowing responsible people to own them. Enforcement is easier to do this way.

The genetic contamination of wild populations is another issue. You don't see hybrid jungle corns or carpondros running amuck in the everglades with the burmese pythons or invading Cape Coral with the Nile monitors.

In my opinion, large exotic snakes and lizards are more of a problem than jungle corns and sinacals.

Honestly, I'm not a big exotic person, and have had to find unwanted large boids, pythons, monitors and tegus good homes over the years. Would I want these species banned because of the owners' short term husbandry decisions on an impulse buy?! NO, because there are other hobbyists that provide excellent care for these animals. I just wish that people would do some research and soul search before they truly want to commit to such a responsibility. Other folks aren't always going to take care of the problems that these people create. Still, certain animal extremist groups instill fear in the populace and try to take away the rights of many because of the transgressions of a few.

As long as hybrids are represented as such, and are not released into the wild, I don't have a problem with them. I even own one!

This is a good discussion!

Neil

Another part of this is how everyone is worried about them being released into the wild--whether intentional or not--I don't see how this is a valid concern since everyone I know who works with reptiles does not confine their husbandry to native animlas of their state--with that being said anyone who has snakes that have escapes or been let go on purpose; now has given a chance for that animal to infect native populations. This has happened in Florida with Cane toads cross breeding with Southern toads. So the problem is not only confined to people who create hybrids. It is a responsibility to everyone who owns any reptile to make certain that they have their animals secure. Of couse no one can do anything with the people who just want to let something go for their own warped amusement.

I think that when the regulation is written and only spells out the species but says nothing of mixed breeds that it would not fall under the jurisdiction of the law enforcment agencies--but if they did add something on the lines of "like species" then it would be enforceable--this is only speculaction on my part.

Why do they want to ban them ? My oldest sister wanted to move to a town house community in Miami and they had to sign a contract before that says-No reptiles at all not even a tiny ringneck snake or anything none at all.
I think these bans all over the place are kinda silly . My brother in law who has 2 - 7 yr old leopard geckos said forget it and they didnt buy . My sister is ticked lol .
It seems harmless reptiles are being banned in more states.areas.

I don't know why other states pass these type of regulations but here in PA they want them passed to protect the native species (which is just lip service to appease other people) because there is no way these regulations will accomplish that. I think a lot of this is being spearheaded by groups like PETA who are totaly against people owning "wild" animals. If you look at their true agenda, people would see that groups like PETA are even against the ownership of dogs and cats--but we are getting way off of the subject with "Pros and Cons" to hybridization of reptiles--

Limelizard may I ask if there is anyplace where this proposed legislation can be read? Are hobbyists trying to do anything about it? It is much easier to prevent this type of legislation than it is to change it after the fact. It took years, if not decades for my state, California, to reverse it's ban on sales of captive born native getula, pituophis and lichanura. Two years ago CA tried to ban the possesion of L. zonata parviruba and Baja Ratsnakes and all it took to prevent this was hobbyist getting together and attending the public comment session. Same thing happened two years ago in Arizona where public comment by hobbyists prevented the banning of Green Ratsnakes and a reduction of the possesion limit for pyromelana. In both instances hobbyists getting together with bona fide wildlife biologists who recognized the negligable impact of personal use take and possesion (as opposed to commercial collecting) where key to their success.

most purists come here acting like 5 year olds and try to make us mad, you came and expressed your views in a respectable way.
its funny how most purists try to make us take thier views as our own(just like cristians) telling us that we are wrong, im glad your not like that, i wish more purists were like that, then we could discuss hybrids instead of arguing about them.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

With regards to legislation, I feel most prohibitions are placed upon us by gov't to make their job easier. W/ the bans limelizard mentioned in PA, it would be just as effective to pass legislation that said species aquired must c.b.b. and have husbandry records to that effect, but like you said...a blanket ban makes gov't work easier. I've stopped keeping large boids since I bacame a father, and am having lots of fun w/ the smaller Morelia species, but I still wince and speak up every time I here some pet store clerk tell a kid that a retic will only grow as large as its enclosure!
As far as being a purist, I guess I can wear that label, although I came here to learn more about hybrids (i.e. husbandry of Blood X Ball hybrids) and how snakes' health is impacted. No one can learn when name calling.
Ironically, I do consider myself a Christian! LOL Go figure!
And yes, this is a good discussion.
mike

Mike,

You make some salient points. Unfortunately, the premise of this forum is a little strange in my opinion. It should be a Hybrid forum, under the heading of Snake forums as all the others are. A "discussion" is somewhat misleading. Opinions on both sides are great to see and help newcomers or people that have not formed one. But, discussion usually turns to debate (and I am guilty of this) and a debate over hybrids is like a debate over abortion....you are never going to change anyone's mind if they already believe one way or the other. There are "discussions" regarding certain species and aspects of species in all the other specific forums as well as the sharing of husbandry information and the all important photos So I don't see why the hybrids have to be relegated to a discussion forum rather than a regular forum. I will step forward and say I have been less than civil to some in here before, usually this is in direct response to "Hybrids Suck" or some other garbage like that. I should just smile and keep my mouth shut since I am a firm believer in the fact that closed minds can't be changed (including my own). Thanks for the post; it is a nice respite from the usual.

Horridus@aol.com

In addition to pros and cons, I was curious about any health issues that could be associated w/ hybrids. Any one know if there have been any complications w/ blood x ball hybrids, considering the different husbandry requirements? I am personally on the fence w/ regards to some hybrids and am curious about health.
mike

It IS nice to have someone come here and be nice about not liking hybrids! I can really respect someone for learning more about something even if they do not agree with it, and who knows, maybe attitudes may change!

Some of my thoughts...
Whoever said the release of pet reptiles isnt limited to hybrids had a great point! My argument has always been this: I have jungle corns and I live in Colorado. There are no wild corn snakes or California kingsnakes here for my "escaped" hybrids to breed with. In my area we have bulls, garters and prairie rattlers. I really doubt jungles will pollute any of those populations!

Also, lying about the pedigree of the snake, or it being lost in sales down the road. Did anyone here know that you can register corn hybrids in the ACR? I think that takes a step forward in protecting lines. Not foolproof of course. Also, anyone can lie about a pedigree doesnt matter if the snake is pure, integrade, or hybrid! It happens!

Some hybrids I may not necesarily like, or even agree with. To me some are simply: Can it be done? Let's see! But then you come out with something truly beautiful and it's hard to argue. I mean, why do people get started with a certain snake, because they like the way it looks! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! If someone loves the way jungle corns look, who's to say they cannot have one? This really is like arguing about religion. Everyone thinks their religion is the right one.

I personally do not think hybrids hurt the reptile trade at all. Not when you have some going for $500, and people are actually buying them! An increase in interest in responsible herp keeping is good for us all right?

Ok I'm rambling, have to get to work

Sarah
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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

to those who dont like hybrids! you can usually get their attention but in the same regards usually start an argument by asking them this! so if mixing to species of snakes differant only due to color and geography is wrong then do you feel that a white man cant breed with a black/asian/latino woman, because origionally they were just differant do to color and geography.

point!!!

but for referance this will start arguments but im not trying to here. i beleive there is a place for hybrids and purists.

Must..... Not..... Reply.... to..... feable minded.....point

Too.... weak.... from .... laughter

You get absolutely no validation from me, to your point. Completely not logical in arguement. Re-read what you wrote, then think about it some, maybe you'll see my point, and if you dont...it's too late for you.

I agree that hybrid's are un-natural. there are pro's and cons like stated before, banning of a certain species in a particular area cant happen if it's half something different. Personally I wouldn't support anything with hybrid's. I feel like the breeders who do this, are only doing it for the money, as newly hybrid animals that were just produce and offered to others, are at a somewhat high price.