Reptile & Amphibian Forums

nice long reply written up after I logged in and after the 1 1/2 it took to write it I went to post it and it said I must log in and deleted the whole thing. Some was opinion and some was fact)I will get back with ya this weekend. You do bring up some good points as does Nash but I think you need to reread the article. Also I think you took a lot of my comments the wrong way. I don't get offended because you think I think people are refering to me as not caring for my animals, and I don't care that I am lumped into the group of careless pet owners because I have no one to answer to but myself(and the institutions whose animals I keep). I know that I give my animals the proper care and could care less what some radical has to say or thinks of me. What bothers me is that they want to take my animals away. That I will fight for. And no I did not say my "right to keep animals" so don't put words in my mouth(again) about that hogwash. Talk to ya soon. Tom Greb(who are you?)

"Also I think you took a lot of my comments the wrong way."

Maybe, which ones?

"What bothers me is that they want to take my animals away. That I will fight for. And no I did not say my "right to keep animals" so don't put words in my mouth(again) about that hogwash."

Nonono! Where did that come from? The woman runs a humane society, that finds homes for animals, why would she want to keep animals out of good homes? She is not advocating any course of action here, this is an ethics piece. It boils down to: If you knew your animals were miserable and/or would die long before their natural lifespan under you very best ever care, would you continue to keep them in the future? NOT the animals you have now, after all, where would they go? But, would you recommend a reptile pet to someone? Would you support the pet trade? What would you do?

She is not assuming your care is bad or that there are no animals out there that are, in fact, going to live a long life. She asks the question, she gives her data, she forms her own opinion, she welcomes you to answer the question to your own concience. Not as to the present, but as to the future. What is our responsibility to herps?

but first...

"What bothers me is that they want to take my animals away. That I will fight for. And no I did not say my "right to keep animals" so don't put words in my mouth(again) about that hogwash."

Nonono! Where did that come from? I think it comes from the title of the artile to begin with, "The Case Against Captive Reptiles and Amphibian."

She states in her opinion..."I am a new herper who hopes to end the practice of keeping reptiles and amphibians in captivity." I'm not sure if she meant pesonally she was to end it, or for all.

She brings up the point of, "Can we do a good job for a captive herp: If not, why?"

Why not If yes...how?

I didn't like the Ashton's set of "Rules." (#4) For example, one set of rules says Provide appropriate food. She uses the fact that it is time consuming to prepare fresh food, but does not mention the availablilit of specialty diets. It would be time comsuming to prepare natural foods for my dog and cat too.

In Rule number seven, she mentions "avoid confrontations with non-herpers" because many concerns about keeping wild animals as pets are reasonable." I would like to know what she considers reasonable. She mentiones barking dogs, bird killing cats, the fear of snake, ets? I think she strayed from using the green iguana as the "basis of her discussion."

I know collared lizard rarely exceep 5-7 in the wild and frequently (amongst experience) will exceed 12-15. Yes I stipulated the experienced, as this article of discussion related to the inexperienced. Ok, I see her point...she say, "supporting the pet trade." I agree with this. People supporting the collection of resale of wild animals will lead to the loss of more animals. I believe that. That should not be confused with enthusiasts with CB experience selling to others enthusiasts. That should not decrease a lizards life expectancy in any way...only lengthen it.

She also states, "breeders keep alive every hatchling regardless of fitness.? yes this animal would probably met demise early in its natural life, and ALSO IN IT UNNATURAL LIFE.

She mentions the "new generation" of herp owners does not share any values beyond possession. That is a big smack in the face generalization isn't it? I could have sworn I used to see anoles given away at carnivals for prizes. I have learned more in one days worth of reading herp enthusiast websites than I ever learned when I first started. I have learned many things personally that I have passes onto the community (not this site...or the gecko site).

She mentions the veterinary med text is a mere 512 pages for all species. How many ailments has she come across that says 512 pages isn't enough? How many pages in the foremost med text on bird, fish, etc?

I hate to keep simply saying what I disagree with, but one last thing just because I have a few more minutes...

She says, "When we refuse to recognize that most captive-breeding programs bring into existnce wild animals doomed to a life in captivity, we have failed.? Yea...I refuse to recognize that.

People will always be fascinated with animals and want to keep them for our emotional benefit or enjoyment. I would much rather see one in a CB display (or any live display) than picked in a jar at the local museum.

I dont know whate else to say about it. I'm not to put off by the article...she cares about animals well being, and feels that that they need to be in nature...That is pretty much it. I strongly disagree. We can better an animals life with knowledge of its husbandry, thus increasing it lifespan.

Dogs were not always domesticated...but somereason my dog prefers to sleep my bed instead of the hole I dog outback in my 4 acre pasture. I even dug it facing the southwest so it would warm up quicker in the morning.

My collared lizards have been given large quarters and a very natural habitat (minus the threat of hawks and snakes). They eat what flies in naturally. However, they eat so much better when I keep them inside and have larger clutch sizes and more of them etc. I wouldn't keep a hippo in my bathroom, but I would keep a garter snake in a shoebox. The garter would outlive its natural expectancy but a hippo would not...Let's compare apples to apples.

Forgive the typos. I have meeting to go to now.

John E.

"She brings up the point of, "Can we do a good job for a captive herp: If not, why?"

Why not If yes...how?"

Maybe because that's been addressed, and this is another viewpoint that doesn't get as much attention. But a good point, anyhow.

"I didn't like the Ashton's set of "Rules." (#4) For example, one set of rules says Provide appropriate food. She uses the fact that it is time consuming to prepare fresh food, but does not mention the availablilit of specialty diets. It would be time comsuming to prepare natural foods for my dog and cat too."

She does go back and forth between the 2 messages of not only the irresponsible pet owners but the problems good pet owners face, yes. It may have been a clearer message to stick to one, but let's not get them confused in the meantime. I WOULD hate to regulate the reptile pet trade because of bad owners, because it probably will never be illegal, and only regulated in the far future, and besides, there will ALWAYS be bad pet owners, but it was the other issue that brough the most controversy, and besides, my original intention was to correct misinterpretations of the article's meaning, not really get into specific animal care. Although diet was addressed, and you're right, it IS an overcomable issue, I think the space needs of reptiles is the most challenging aspect of reptile care. I'm getting a little out of my depth here, though, so I don't want to talk about things I don't have alot of experience with.

"In Rule number seven, she mentions "avoid confrontations with non-herpers" because many concerns about keeping wild animals as pets are reasonable." I would like to know what she considers reasonable. She mentiones barking dogs, bird killing cats, the fear of snake, ets? I think she strayed from using the green iguana as the "basis of her discussion.""

She did, yes. But, at least with the mention of unsocialized carnivorous monitors, and we've all seen newscasts about local animal wardens having to catch abandoned venomous snakes, some concerns are indeed warranted. It did seem to be too short an editorial to really get into the points she made, and I'm not too sure how many neighborhood citizens against the keep of reptiles are doing so from a concern about iguanas' roaming space, but this was addressing the original article posted by the other gentleman, which I haven't read except for the excerpt, but which formed the basis of her response to him. Beyond that, I can't say.

"I know collared lizard rarely exceep 5-7 in the wild and frequently (amongst experience) will exceed 12-15. Yes I stipulated the experienced, as this article of discussion related to the inexperienced. Ok, I see her point...she say, "supporting the pet trade." I agree with this. People supporting the collection of resale of wild animals will lead to the loss of more animals. I believe that. That should not be confused with enthusiasts with CB experience selling to others enthusiasts. That should not decrease a lizards life expectancy in any way...only lengthen it."

Ok, hypothetically, if she said "I agree to not braodly paint every single reptile specie as being unsuitable for keeping as a pet", would you agree to "I'll look forward to data concerning those pets that so far seem unsuitable and abide by what the data says"? We SHOULD look at each specie individually, you're right. I don't know anything about collared lizards, really, but if research suggested they aren't happy in captivity, I would not want to keep one. I have no idea if they would make a happy pet or not, but the little I know about iguanas suggest that there is a strong possibility thay they do not, as well as monitors, and other animals that get bored when their space needs are not met.

"She also states, "breeders keep alive every hatchling regardless of fitness.? yes this animal would probably met demise early in its natural life, and ALSO IN IT UNNATURAL LIFE."

Not necessarily. Many people force feed pets that are shy eaters, and an unhealthy and unhappy pet is often kept alive by owners that would be sad to see it go, and feel they failed. But a weak, sickly animal really cannot be said to be happy, I don't think.

"She mentions the "new generation" of herp owners does not share any values beyond possession. That is a big smack in the face generalization isn't it? I could have sworn I used to see anoles given away at carnivals for prizes. I have learned more in one days worth of reading herp enthusiast websites than I ever learned when I first started. I have learned many things personally that I have passes onto the community (not this site...or the gecko site)."

I would have to reread at this point, but yes, 'owners do not' is very different from 'alot of new owners don't'. I'm not sure the quote, though.

"She mentions the veterinary med text is a mere 512 pages for all species. How many ailments has she come across that says 512 pages isn't enough? How many pages in the foremost med text on bird, fish, etc?"

A good point, I would *guess* more, but the point was, there is so much we DON'T know. Most vets are clueless when it comes to reptile diseases, so regardless if 512 pages is big or small, it could, and should, be MUCH bigger before we consider a pet whose ailments and prevention thereof are so little known and documented.

"She says, "When we refuse to recognize that most captive-breeding programs bring into existnce wild animals doomed to a life in captivity, we have failed.? Yea...I refuse to recognize that."

But, for every other specie, we let the term 'wild animal' steer our actions towards that animal into one of non-interference. So, if you are willing to call an iguana or bearded dragon a wild animal, the point is well made. It is only if you disagree that they ARE wild animals at heart that the difference would occur.

"People will always be fascinated with animals and want to keep them for our emotional benefit or enjoyment. I would much rather see one in a CB display (or any live display) than picked in a jar at the local museum."

Even if data suggested that animal was unhappy? Even if future, more scientific and less empirical data suggested the same thing? Would you STILL like to see them as pets, whether CB or not? People keep lions and panthers for the same reason, but far less people would hesitate to call that inhumane. Is it just because reptiles are smaller and don't eat us that we ignore their innate natures?

"I strongly disagree. We can better an animals life with knowledge of its husbandry, thus increasing it lifespan."

Yes yes yes, exactly. But how many animals are to be the guinea pigs while we figure it out? And what if we figure out that they are unhappy, did we fail the animals that had been kept until then? Shouldn't we know more before we keep an iguana or a box turtle?

"Dogs were not always domesticated"

We didn't keep them as pets when they weren't.

"My collared lizards have been given large quarters and a very natural habitat (minus the threat of hawks and snakes). They eat what flies in naturally. However, they eat so much better when I keep them inside and have larger clutch sizes and more of them etc. I wouldn't keep a hippo in my bathroom, but I would keep a garter snake in a shoebox. The garter would outlive its natural expectancy but a hippo would not...Let's compare apples to apples."

I don't know much about collared lizards or garter snakes, but if you would, with clear conscience, keep a garter snake in a box when it's natural habitat is a few person's yards, how is that humane? Don't let the small SIZE of the animal fool you into thinking it needs less SPACE. A hippo might be content in an in-ground pool filled with mud, for all I know. I submit to you, in that case, it would be more humane to keep the hippo than the garter.

I think it will be along time before empiriclae data can prove an animal, other than human, is "happy."

Until this is the case, I can only judge happiness by longevity. My happiness only comes when I feel I am providing the utmost care. If my lizards are growing, breeding, eating, crapping, biting, they are acting pretty normal (unless they have a touch of tameness).

Regarding the garters and lots of other snakes. They say they feel much more secure in small containers and can stress out with too much room. Lots of animals ranges in the wild is a direct result of finding mates, or finding food. Hand that to them on a silver platter, as is the case in captivity, and you will find that range in drastically reduced.

My point...look at the iguanas constantly fed at the island resorts...I wonder how far they travel and what their range tends to be compared to a lizard living in a more "wild" area.

John E.

I was going to bring up something of the sort. An animals range is dependent on all that criteria. I know for instance that a chuckwallas range will very from area to area depending on food, availablity of secure hiding spots and finding a female.

Now I feel smarter knowing you were going to bring up the same point LOL.

Good discussion indeed. It brought Gecko lurkers and collared lurkers together in one with with Cyclura fanatics. ha,ha.

J

quote, "I am a "new herper" that wants to put the practice of keeping reptiles and amphibians in captivity to an end." That is all I have time for now but I really enjoy the debate Will write more later. Tom

"quote, "I am a "new herper" that wants to put the practice of keeping reptiles and amphibians in captivity to an end." That is all I have time for now but I really enjoy the debate Will write more later. Tom"

Right, she would like to end the pet trade. I would like to see a reduction in overpopulation of humans on the planet, but you're misinterpreting her vision akin to the people who would ask me, "Who would you kill?" I would not kill anybody, and she does not want to see your pets taken away. But discouraging people to own reptiles, so that in the future there is little to no demand for them, is what she is addressing, I believe.

And this, of course, only if future data on expectant life spans in captive versus wild animals supports her hypothesis.

live a less than desirable life from the time it gets collected and shipped to a wholesaler, to the time it may have to find a nice home. That's a whole other can of worms though and something that I really have mixed feeling about.

J