Finally got some time to post. Anyway I wanted to start off by saying that Ae Nash obviously has her own agenda. She wants to stop the practice of keeping herps in captivity period. I am sure that there are people in the professional arena that would agree with her. I don't.
You have to understand the physiology of herps. They are not smart animals. They do not know if they are in captivity or not. Their brain is not advanced enough to figure that out(perscomm Richard Montanucci Herpetology phd Department of Biological Sciences, Clemson University.) So when Nash says they are doomed it is her own personal opinion. Grant it, yes the iguana kept in a 10 gallon tank by some frat house idiot as you put it is doomed to death. That is no reason to stop keeping herps in captivity. It is reason to take other measures as John E. says like making less animals available and demanding high prices. This should keep a lot more herps out of the hands of the people that buy these things on a whim without the slightest idea of what it takes to take care of these guys properly. That should be more the issue. There is no reason for the keepers who know what they are doing to suffer because of the ignorant. Doing this is fascist and that is and that is not what this country is about(I hope).
The physiology of a herp is such that it only knows if needs are met in order for it to thrive. The better the needs are met the better it will do. Yes I know there is a point when they can be over cared for too. Obesity is probably the most common or over supplementation causing body chemistry to be way out of whack (which then leads to a myriad of other problems). There is a ton of information on these types of problems readily available and more and more is being learned every day. Yes I know you say how many animals have to die before we figure these things out. The answer is: A lot. But this has nothing to do with conservation as you stated keeping reptiles in captivity and conservation do not have to go hand in hand. An example is bearded dragons. How many died of coccidia problems before it was figured out these animals can not tolerate that parasite? The answer: A lot. Did it effect the conservation of beardeds in the wild? Answer: No absolutely not. Their habitat and numbers are very secure.
Nash in her commentary does compare humans to reptiles in more than just space requirements. You need to read the whole paragraph in context. She uses the word stimuli which is more than just special needs. Like I said earlier understand the creature you are writing about. As long as all their needs are adequately met there is no suffering. An animal does not suffer just because it is in captivity. It may not be natural but that does not equate to suffering. You think animals do not suffer in the wild? If not you better go back to grade school. Again with that suffering bit. I don't think John E. was attacking Nash as much as her beliefs when he made the vulture comment. But wouldn't that be natural? Do you think that little sickly iguana is not suffering in the wild or in pain when a bird of prey crushes its head to disable it? That's natural though so I guess it's ok then.
When I asked about her credentials I was talking expertise. Just because you are the founder of an anti herp keeping reptile rescue does not make you an expert on herp physiology. Maybe she did get professional help on her information but I doubt it as there are no references for her information other than her own personal experience. Also about you comment about what's wrong with the Humaine Society. The answer is nothing if you don't like keeping your gecko. You need to go to their website and check out their agenda. Here is the link: http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/should_wild_animals_be_kept_as_pets.html . Just like Nash no reptile regardless of it being wild caught or captive bred. From your comments I think you seem to think that I am disagreeing with her beliefs because I am offended . I am not! I could care less of what her or any other radical such as herself thinks of me. I only need to be responsible for me my animals and any institutions whose animals are in my care. I am disagreeing from a more informed point of view. MAN READ! THIS IS NOT A HYPOTHESIS OF HER'S! THESE ARE HER PERSONAL PASSIONATE BELIEFS! She was making one point not 2. The point is: No herps in captivity. She just used the bad pet owner argument to prove her point. That is because that is a majority of what she sees. Yes this is raw data but it is not the complete picture in this case. Maybe she should have written this for PETA as I highly doubt the many bad pet owners will ever see this. All I believe(yes my opinion) she is trying to do her is drum up support to help her cause. The professionals here(IRCF) have the power to help her. The deal about even the best captive conditions not being good enough is just her opinion. I do agree with the both you on one thing. We need to keep questioning ourselves on if what we are providing for our herps is sufficient. This I continually ask myself and strive to make things better all the time.
I did a yahoo search and found nothing. I did find out a lot about the CRHS. John Binns did write me a told me that she is very generous in helping with the blue iguana rescue program. I do not dislike the women. I don't even know her. I just disagree strongly with her belief. She has probably done more for herp conservation that I ever will in my lifetime and I respect her for that. I can even see her point on this to a certain extent. The pet trade is a very terrible thing. I have seen it. I have been there tons of reptiles suffer death. And yes I think something needs to be done. But I don't think making responsible pet owners and keepers is the way to do it. Yes outlawing reptiles in captivity would solve the problem but then the black market in reptiles would be even greater than what it is. Also all these documentaries compare the pet trade to the drug trade in dollars. Where are these numbers I want to see them because I don't believe it. Groups like her's use this type of info to hel;p their cause but they never present any numbers.
The comment of mine I think you misunderstood was the one about keeping herps in captivity and conservation. You said there is no rule about having to do one to do the other. Yopu are absolutely corrct. What I meant is that the one (captivity) usually leads to the other (conservation) I think that probably 9 out of 10 people involved in the conservation herps have and/or still do keep retiles. You are right you do not have to do one to do the other. And I know that there are a ton of people that keep and never have supported conservation. It is known to be a very good conservation tool to have people get hands on. If they have never made a connection with the animal they probably would not care about it. How many times to you hear from non reptile people, "Who cares if some stupid lizard becomes extinct. It won't effect me in the slightest" That is the general attitude of most of the general public. That is why the bakeri conservation program on Utila introduces the human population there to this beautiful lizard. They did not know about it-they did not care about it. Now maybe at least some will and this may be enough to protect it from extinction.
Vitri maybe you are right and she does not think no herps in captivity but this the message I get from commentary.. Yes you have succeeded in maybe making me think this is not her cause. Maybe I did take it personally but this also seems to be the message a majority of the readers get. I would truly like to meet this person. She sounds very interesting and discuss this. Maybe I am taking the whole issue the wrong way but I really think she only brings the question up because she thinks we don't really know the answers. And if we don't really know the answers then maybe we shouldn't keep them in captivity. But I think there is a lot more knowledge on what it takes to keep these animals happy than she believes.
Thanks for listening.
Tom Greb
